I hope this isn’t a stupid question. I’ve got a nonsuch 30 Classic that I inherited and have been working to get it back to the way it was 3 years ago before my father passed.
In 2019, he had removed the two blade folding prop because he got annoyed with the fact that some of the time it wouldn’t open when he put in in reverse. He went out and replaced it with a 3 blade fixed prop.
I was only out with him once with the 3 bladed fixed prop and yes even though it had consistent propulsion in forward or reverse, when we were under sail he would shut down the engine put it in reverse and it felt like we were dragging a bucket behind us.
My question is this, with a 27 HP Westerbeke, while under sail should you put the engine in gear after you shut it off, or should you leave it in neutral?
I took this video of the engine spinning, under sail after it had been shut off, but i was concerned it would cause damage to it? You can hear my father actually mention looking at getting a 3 bladed Gori Prop for it. Anyone ever use one of those or is there a prop that is recommended?
Craig
I don’t believe that either gear would damage anything on the boat but might reduce your speed.
That’s part of learning to sail. My guess is freewheeling prop.
Brian
Boat-less in New England
From the Hurth HBW 150V manual. I’m assuming you have this V drive transmission.
3.5
The zero position of the operating lever on the control console must coincide with the zero position of the actuating lever on the transmission. Shifting is initiated by a cable or rod linkage via the actuating lever and an actuating cam.
The completion of the gearchanging operation is servo-automatically controlled.
Gear changing should be smooth, not too slow, and continuous (without
interruption). Direct changes from forward to reverse are permissible, since the multiple-disc clutch permits gear changing at high rpm, includingsudden reversing at top speeds in the event of danger.
Sailing and moving in tow
Rotation of the propeller without load while the boat is sailing, being towed,
or anchored in a river, as well as operation of the engine with the propeller stopped (for charging the battery), will have no detrimental effects on the gearbox.
Important
When the boat is sailing (engine stopped), the gear lever must be in zero position. Never put the gear lever in the position corresponding to the direction of travel of the boat.
Locking of the propeller shaft by an additional brake is not required: use the gear lever position opposite your direction of travel for this purpose.
My boat had a totally wrecked 2 bladed folding prop when I got it. I was going to sail the boat from Alameda to San Diego and I had to replace it and the delivery captain who was going to be with me said we might end up doing a lot of motoring, so I replaced it with the Gori prop with overdrive. I ended up having the boat trucked (different story) so here I am with a very nice prop. The Gori goes forward in either of two pitches and reverses quite well. Selecting a forward pitch is fussy and I have no idea which pitch I’m in most of the time, but I go such short distances that I really don’t care.
The boat sails like there is not a prop under there. I think you will definitely like sailing with whatever folding or feathering prop you get a lot more than with the fixed one. You’ll worry that the bolt was loose and it fell off.
But the non-fixed ones do take more maintenance. Some require greasing - the Gori does not. Most have special zincs that you cannot substitute for. The diver says that they seem to last about 6 months. So if you pull your boat annually, you can change it yourself. If not, a diver can change it. They do it all the time here in San Diego. I can pay a diver for almost a year on what it would cost to haul my boat and put it back in the water the next day.
And I think all folding/feathering props are more expensive than fixed. Mine was around $4000 plus tax and installation. That’s for an NS33. Yours will be less, but still expensive compared to a fixed one.
“Direct changes from forward to reverse are permissible, since the multiple-disc clutch permits gear changing at high rpm, includingsudden reversing at top speeds in the event of danger.”
I believe that what Ward just posted is true whether you have the v-drive or straight-drive set-up. The only thing that is NOT ok is to sail with the engine off and the transmission in forward.
The prop will make more noise freewheeling in neutral but will offer less drag. If locked by turning off the engine and shifting to reverse, it will be quieter but with more drag.
A fixed two-bladed propeller will offer less drag locked but will not move or stop the boat as well.
Many Nonsuchers have said they like the Campbell prop which claims theirs have relatively less drag than other three-bladed, but I have no personal information to offer on that.
There are a number of newer folding propellers which are rated as being more reliable at opening in reverse, and the same is true for feathering props.
Hello Craig
First, there are no stupid questions, so ask away. Second, my experience of 22 years with shoal draft 30 Classic # 144; for what it’s worth. MagnifiCat came with a 2 fixed blade prop. I found in ‘adverse’ conditions (short, confused seas, shallow waters, maneuvering, etc.,). I used more engine revs, bad language, good whiskey, than was appropriate. I switched to a Campbell Sailor fixed 3 blade and, my language improved dramatically, whiskey consumption reduced to an acceptable and more enjoyable level, engine revs decreased, maneuvering at the dock or cruising when necessary or desirable, a pleasure. I like to brag that I can keep up with most, if not all, other Nonsuchii in these waters. I have never felt I was dragging a bucket when in company with comparable boats. If I were sailing off shore Nova Scotia I would have much more confidence in my Campbell Sailor than any of the folding variety. While under sail, I have been told by more than one marine mechanic, to engage reverse and not to let the prop free wheel to avoid damage to the transmission. I have heard it said, although I have never seen evidence, that free wheeling prop creates more drag. That’s my two cents; congratulations on inheriting a very fine boat !
Alan Steward
30 C # 144, MagnifiCat,
Loyalist Cove Marina,
Bath, Ontario
I only have nice things to say about my Gory 2 blade folding prop after 20 years. When I replaced the two blade fixed, I gained maybe a knot under sail. There are no problems at all in reverse
Joe Valinoti
S/V iL Gatto NS30U #221
Sea Harbour YC
Oriental, NC USA
Good to have someone confirm what I’d heard about Campbell.
The advice you got from mechanics about not freewheeling is true for pretty much every diesel engine I know of – with the exception of Westerbekes with Hurth transmissions. In that case, the factory manuals say it’s ok, so I’d assume that it is.
I did a bunch of research on freewheeling vs. locking for drag reduction, because I was wondering about it for my electric engine. (The issue there was whether the regeneration I was getting from freewheeling while sailing was going to increase drag.)
There’s opinions on both sides, but the preponderance of data that I could find leans toward freewheeling being lower drag.
Hi Bob,
I am certainly ‘sold’ on the Campbell prop, but then, I am not a racer. My wife & I enjoy cruising the Eastern end of Lake Ontario & the Thousand Islands area of the St. Laurence River. When it’s time to head in, for what ever reason, weather or work, we may be running the engine for a few hours. 2200 rpm gives me 5.5 - 6 knots on calm water which gets us home quickly enough. Thank you for bringing me up to date on the freewheeling issue, good to know, and I will try that and see if I notice any difference.
I have had a Gori 2 blade like Joe for 20 years. Works very well. But three bladed props are "smother " when motoring . Campbell makes well regarded props. But folding props add a knot of sped which matters in all sailing conditions. On long trips 20- 30% more boat speed matters…
With you guys. I had folding props on a previous boat and found that they worked well and never had problems in reverse. There are a number of reviews out there on the different manufacturers, and I believe that most (although not all) have licked that problem.
Personally, if cost were no object and I still had a diesel, I’d go back to having one in two shakes of lamb’s tail. With an electric motor in my case, however, it would mean giving up regeneration. Which I would do in two shakes of lamb’s tail if I had enough solar installed. Which I would install in two shakes of a lamb’s tail if cost were no object…
With drooping tail, though, I have to admit that budget trade-off decisions must be made.
If I had to get a new prop and didn’t want to spend as much as a folding prop costs, my impression (and it is only an impression) is that a three-bladed Campbell is currently the best alternative.
But I’m really curious to hear from others. If you are going to get a fixed prop, what would you pick? For those who’ve recently gone to folding, what did you pick and why?
Appreciate all the answers and Ward, for your contribution providing the exact snippet from the manual. I think knowing that information has been a great help!
Money unfortunately is an object and will be the reason why this year I’ll be sticking with the 3 bladed fixed, (no idea the manufacture but I know it’s not a Campbell) but I’m going to squirrel some money away and hopefully before spring of next year I’ll have enough for a decent folding or feathering prop.
I’ll definitely do some research first!
Again thanks to everyone for your input on this, it and this group has been a great resource for someone new like me.
I have other questions but they aren’t related to the engine or prop so I’ll start a new thread.
Thanks again!
Craig
NS30C #59
“Sabbatical” soon to be “Sea Joy”
Halifax, Nova Scotia
I’m guessing you will be pulling your boat for the winter. If you can change the prop yourself it makes more economic sense to wait and do it before next spring.
You can agonize over the various differences between all of the folding/feathering props, but I suspect that you will get used to the idiosyncrasies of whichever one you buy.
If you do decide on Gori, plan to give them plenty of delivery time because these guys ain’t Amazon Prime. Others’ experience may vary, but mine shipped from Europe and arrived in NYC during some big Florida boat show. So the US distributor sat on it while my boat racked up daily storage fees in the yard.
Craig,
I read somewhere it’s better to put it in reverse so the prop shaft, bearings, etc aren’t always spinning so that’s what we do. Maybe better for the stuffing box? It’s quieter also.
George Berntsen
Wave Dancer 30U #283
Black Rock, Connecticut
Craig,
Also I read somewhere that if you have a 2 blade prop then you should lock it in vertical position on a long sail. You can mark the prop shaft end to see that so it requires some effort to see it to verify, hence long sail.
Brian
Boat-less in New England
One more thing if you are on a budget. Kiwiprop, made in New Zealand, is around half the price of any other folding or feathering prop.
I have had a three blade Kiwiprop for the past several years. The Kiwiprop is a feathering prop. The prop seems to perform well as we have acceptable racing results.
My recollection was that I had the prop in hand from New Zealand a week after placing the order.
The US rep is in California. Perhaps Canada has different distribution. Google Kiwiprop for details.