Advice and recommendations for navigation aid(s)

I am hoping for some contemporary advice with sourcing a decent navigation device for my NS22 o/b, recently purchased from one of this group’s master contributors, Mr Ernie Abugov.
As I become more familiar with the beauty of Nonsuch sailing I am tempted (and rather excited) to venture further than my usual, Lake Ontario, day-sailing pattern. Having met some very friendly Nonsuchers from up-state New York during this year’s Rendezvous in Toronto, I would like to ready myself for a passage across the lake.
Currently I am equipped with a VHF radio, a Raymarive tiller pilot, a through-hull boat speed meter (not always functioning), a through hull depth sounder (not working at all) and a hand-held Garmin GPS.
Having admired the larger, senior, vessels at the Rendezvous I am now anxious to begin addressing my future needs, hopefully with the benefit of advice and guidance from this group of experienced Nonsuch sailors.
My hope is to find a gadget that is

  1. appropriate for the size of my small vessel (small cockpit relative to its larger cousins. Tiller’ed also.)
  2. not requiring me to climb or unstep the mast to install
  3. as comprehensive, all-in-one, as possible
  4. helpful in providing me a layer of much-needed safety in longer passages/cruises
  5. cost/value appropriate
    I have attempted an internet search but the combination of my inexperience and general sloth and indolence has not been helpful…so I hope perhaps this group has some ideas for me to follow.

Many thanks

Charles

“Foggy”
NS22 o/b Hull#56
Outer Harbour Marina, Toronto

Charles -

All you need is this.

https://www.hodgesmarine.com/raye70363-00-nag-raymarine-axiomtrade-7-7-mfd-chartplotter-o.html

You can then plan your trips on your iPad or PC and upload them to the chartplotter.

Others use their iPads alone, which is OK but not as robust as the Axiom. I’d get that depth transducer working too if you are exploring new territory.

Bob Gehrman
NS30U #396 “Quickbeam”
Baltimore, Maryland

Charles and Bob -

It’s me, master contributor Ernie Abugov. (Master Contributor is a designation of one who writes a lot of stuff and some of it may actually be halfway accurate/correct).

However, to the point.

Charles … we’ll talk in the flesh.

Bob - I’ve attached the link to Raymarine’s Axiom page. Could you take a peek at it and advise whether you’d go for the Axiom or the Axiom+ range ?? I do not believe that Charles’ Raymarine 2000 tiller pilot can be linked to the Axiom (but I’m not sure … because I’m a master contributor, I guess).

https://www.raymarine.com/en-us/our-products/chartplotters/axiom

Ernie A. in Toronto

IPAD
You can put Navionics on an iPad and have a basic device which can meet your requirements. They are not really marinized nor are they as bright as a dedicated unit, but you might consider it as a way to get started and learn what you really need. An iPad is not cheap and a nice one can cost as much as a nice MFD of similar size, so this option is best if you already own one.

MFD
It seems like a multi-function display (MFD) would meet most of your requirements. They are basically a small screen and computer that you can install in the cockpit. They can display a chart and they typically have GPS built in so they can show your position on the chart as well as your GPS course and speed. (Note that, due to the wind pushing you sideways when close hauled, your boat doesn’t always go in exactly the direction you point it and the display will show which direction you are actually going.)
Regarding your requirements:

  1. MFDs are available in a range of sizes, so you can pick one that suits your boat and your needs. I would suggest looking up the dimensions and building a cardboard box to those dimensions. Do not ignore the depth - these things are a lot thicker than an iPad. You can put this in your cockpit and move it around until you are happy with the placement. This will allow you to try different sizes without spending $1000s on trial and error.
  2. The MFD can do more than just display a chart. They can display or even overlay radar onto the chart, show AIS contacts, display engine statistics and on and on. Most of these things require that extra equipment be installed and some may require climbing the mast, but you don’t need them to get started and you may not need them ever.
  3. Oh, I think I already covered this. They can grow to become an entire command center, but you probably don’t need or want that.
  4. I think knowing where you are is a pretty good safety measure. :slight_smile:
  5. They are not cheap, but if they save you from grounding or crashing into something and if they allow you more use of your boat, then they can be a bargain. You’ll need to decide for yourself what one is worth.

Earlier this year I installed a Raymarine Axiom+ 9 in my boat. It is the 9" screen model. The original Axiom dates from 2017 and may provide you with everything you need and want for a lower price. You pay more for newer technology, but you tend to get more, too. Especially in the way of long term support and utility. The current Axiom+ family was released in 2020 and so even it is getting old. Soon the original Axiom stuff will be two generations behind. If that matters to you.
I chose Raymarine because B&G (in spite of being my initials) had a reputation for overheating in the sun. And we do get sun here in San Diego. Comparing the two, the Raymarine has a huge heat sink on the back and the B&G does not. Heat sinks are good for electronics. The other reason I chose Raymarine is that I already have some basic Raymarine instruments on the boat and I hoped to interface to them and to be able to display their information on the MFD. Most specifically, I have an i60 wind instrument which is mounted on the rear cabin bulkhead and so is always blocked by either the door or a passenger. I don’t fixate on it, but I do like to refer to it. I was able to network it into my Axiom+ MFD and now the wind information is displayed right in front of me at the helm and the passengers are more free to move around.
But networking involves stringing cables around and that’s a hassle, especially to make them look good. And the cables and tees and so on cost more money.

CHARTS
I do not know how other manufacturers do it, but with Raymarine you must buy the charts separately. (You can get them as a package, but they are still really two different products.) Raymarine, themselves, publish Lighthouse Charts or you can get Navionics which is now actually owned by Garmin. I have Navionics on my cell phone and I like it. I goofed and ended up with Lighthouse charts on my MFD. They are “fine” but I wish I’d gotten Navionics.
If you do buy Raymarine, be careful not to confuse their Lighthouse operating system with Lighthouse charts. The basic MFD comes with the Lighthouse OS, but not the charts. Unless you buy one of the package deals.

AIS / RADAR
I do not have radar which would increase my safety at night and in the fog. As it is, I am rarely out at night and I avoid the fog. Radar is expensive and the unit is only half (or less) of the cost of the full installation even if you do it yourself. I cannot justify the cost for the sailing that I do. But what if things go awry and I end up in the wrong conditions? I think AIS is a kind of compromise between radar and no-radar. It allows you to see the location, course, and speed of other vessels who have AIS transceivers. If a vessel does not have an AIS transceiver the screen will not show their location, but larger and commercial vessels all seem to have it as well as more and more smaller private ones.
You can get AIS receivers built into a VHF radio. You need to network the radio to your MFD in order to display the AIS identified vessels on your chart. But if you want to be visible to them, you will need an AIS transceiver which will also transmit your course and speed to other vessels. These are usually stand-alone units and are more expensive, of course. Only you can decide the expense:safety ratio that will work for you.
I recently installed an AIS transceiver on my boat. My final decision on receiver -vs- transceiver was made after listening to quite a few calls on the radio. I was concerned whether big commercial or military vessels (lots of those in SD) actually paid any attention to private boats with class B AIS transceivers. It turns out that they do. So now I know that they can see me and that some, at least, will take steps to ensure that I do not collide with them. Not as good as radar, but a big improvement over nothing.

Good luck, and please let us know what you end up with.

I have the ‘non-plus’ versions and they are just fine. The 7 is a nice size but I have a 9 on my 36 and it’s really nice.

If you’re using these for finding fish the higher resolution may be nicer, but for navigation the clarity is perfectly good.

Older Raymarine products do integrate with the Axiom. You have to get a SeaTalk converter to the SeaTalk ng network to get them talking. Raymarine support can help to confirm if your exact model will connect.

Bob Gehrman
NS30U #396 “Quickbeam”
Baltimore, Maryland

Regarding the autopilot. The ST2000 is the same generation as my ST4000 and uses the NMEA-0183 (Seatalk1) network. You can get a converter from NMEA-0183 to the NMEA-2000 network on the Axiom MFDs, but there may be more to it than that. The protocols on the NMEA-0183 are quite different, with “talkers” and “listeners”. I have read claims by smart people who were able to get the ST4000 to work with their Axiom MFD, but with limited functionality. I have read claims by other smart people who could not get it to work no matter what they did. I’m guessing things are similar with the ST2000. So it might work, but I would not count on it.
I aim to try and get mine working with the Axiom display, but it has been a low priority because of the lower probability of success.

I was able to get my old ST4000 to talk with the Axiom but the only thing it kinda did was to follow a route when under power (haphazardly and not very reliably). Otherwise there was no functionality on the MFD with that older autopilot.

https://www.raymarine.com/en-us/our-products/networking-and-accessories/seatalk/seatalk-1-to-seatalk-ng-convertor

Bob Gehrman
NS30U #396 “Quickbeam”
Baltimore, Maryland

Frankly, if you have the tiller pilot I’m not sure you’d need to network it, anyway. After all, you’re sitting right there at the tiller when you want to program it. Then you get up and walk away. Not much difference that I can see between that and programming it via the MFD. And it’s simpler and won’t cost any money for conversion and networking stuff nor will it negatively affect your blood pressure trying to get it working.

I’d like to be able to just tell my wheel pilot to point into the wind from the MFD so I can raise and lower the sails. This would be the poke of a button on the tiller pilot, I think. With my wheel pilot right now I’d have to leave the wheel to do even that simple task because the display is on the aft cabin bulkhead. Makes it kinda useless. Will yours do that?

Foggy,
Although I have a Raymarine chart plotter on my binnacle guard I also have a chart on my cell phone and IPad by by Navionics.
If you have an older iPad you will need to purchase a hockey puck size blue tooth gps antenna such as xgps 160 to Bluetooth the gps signed to your iPad.
If you have a newer cellular capable iPad you are all set because they have a built in GPS.
I recently purchased a used newer model iPad (cellular capable) and I can use my Navionics boating app without a separate gps receiver.
It works well and…….it has tide flow info on the chart.
Cheers

Brian - Unfortunately no the MFD will not activate the Wind Vane feature on the ST4000. However the ST4000 does have that feature:

https://www.manualslib.com/manual/138185/Raymarine-Autopilot-Plus-St4000Plus.html?page=42

News just in: Navionics on the web app has been removed by Garmin, owner of Navionics. That sucks -

The apps still work however as before.

Bob, Ernie, William and Brian, thank you! You have collectively given me a huge step up the knowledge ladder….and I agree the necessity of having the tiller-pilot talk to the MFD is overkill for me and my situation. I will likely drift in the direction of Axiom, as suggested, but still have much to learn obviously.
I will let you know where I settle.
Yours aye,

Charles Fogden
“Foggy” NS22 o/b #56
Toronto

I have been using an Oukitel ruggedized tablet with Navionics. It is great - waterproof, bright screen visible in the daylight, ruggedized, lots of memory for other apps, It has been all I need.

OUKITEL RT7 Waterproof Tablet Android - 32000mAh Battery Rugged Tablet, 33W Fast Charging, 16GB+256GB 1TB Expandable Tablet PC, 10.1" FHD+Tablets,48MP+20MP Night Vision Camera,4G Dual SIM/NFC/T-Mobile

Mark Nerenhausen
N26 - Penguin
Washington Island, WI

Has anyone heard of this unit ?? It’s called MAPTATTOO and it’s built for small boats. Here’s a link:

https://www.maptattoo.com/

And … Mark Nerenhausen: Does your OUKITEL have a built-in GPS ?? It’s a tablet, not a GPS chartplotter - what do you actually require to “make it work” as a GPS ?

Thanks,

Ernie A. in Toronto

Here is how I mount the Ipad mini (with Garmin GPS via bluetooth) on my NS 22.

I started with placing it (with a suction cup) on the veritical fiberglass surface to the right of the access into the cabin but found that a) it got blocked by people relaxing in the cockpit facing the stern, b) the suction cup sat too far out and made it difficult to recling comfortably against the forward wall, c) it go in the way of the choker and reefing lines when they needed to be adjusted.

This is on a RAM MOUNT Articulated arm (with a tightening screw) so that when someone needs to go below they can pivot it inwards to the wall of the head. if others want the specific parts on amazing contact me directly.

The Garmin Glo 2 significantly improved the accuracy of the cellular based Ipad internal GPS. Now when I pass a channel marker buoy on the water, Navionics show I’m at that same spot.

Jeff
NS22 Sliver (tiller, no wheel)
Lac St. Louis, Montreal, QC

on either side via suction but

I went through a round with Raymarine when I bought an Axiom and an ST4000 for my first Nonsuch. To make a long story short, after six weeks of going around with Raymarine “support” as to why my system wouldn’t work as documented in the manual that Bob Gehrman referenced above, I finally got their final answer:

  1. the device no longer supports the "press two buttons simultaneously to enter wind vane mode"feature
  2. they explicitly disavowed the manual’s claim that it did
    Having had this set-up on a previous boat, I know that it used to work. But not anymore.

The idea of spending six weeks to find out that I couldn’t trust the manual and their advertising put me off of Raymarine permanently. Prior to this, I would’ve supported them just as Bob did.

If you want to buy new equipment, everyone I’ve talked to who’s bought Garmin recently has been happy.

Alternatively, if you already have an Apple or Android table, you might want also want to take a look at AquaMaps, which has worked well for me.

I just sent email to them because the link offering a 30% discount to INA members appears to be broken. I don’t know how pricing compares to Navionics on a tablet w/o the discount, but AquaMaps was a lot cheaper than Navionics at the time I bought in a few years ago. You pay a one-time fee for the app, then additional annual costs for receiving updates to the regions you download.

The moral to my story: equipment manufacturers’ quality and service seem to change, so ask people to put dates on their recommendations.

– Bob
Me Gusta
Nonsuch e26U #233

One cautionary note about Android tablets is that not all have GPS receivers, some use WiFi signals for position determination. I was able to find a ruggedized Android tablet since I have a hate for all apple products. The tablet works well with Navionics as a backup for the B&G Vulcan 9 MFD we use as the main display.

Blake

it has built in gps and operates just like a chartplotter. No additional add-ons required. I really like it because I can take it between boats and off the boat easily. I have also downloaded pdfs of all my manuals and navigation guides so they are all there in one place

Honestly, I don’t think the future favors specialized marine instrument displays. I think they’ll be overwhelmed by the cost benefits for tablets offered by a much larger market, built-in support for wireless connectivity, the ability to integrate information, as well as the ability of users to customize their presentations.

Sensors and transducers, because they really are specialized to the marine market, might be a different story.

The marine manufacturers may try to hold on for a while by playing the kind of games that Apple, Microsoft, and Android play by making mixing-and-matching unnecessarily difficult. But I’m not sure that the smaller market size and customer demand will favor them as much as for computer manufacturers. I suspect (or maybe just hope) that the smaller market for boat instrumentation will incentivize sensor/transducer producers to maximize their potential market by ensuring general compatibility. It’s one thing for someone making a peripheral device to chain themselves to a big computer company, because a big piece of a huge market is good enough. It’s another thing to hitch up to a marine display manufacturer, because even a big piece of a much smaller market is not as exciting.

Not trying to advocate particular decisions in the short term, just speculating on which companies will still be around in 10 years.

Mark is very much on target in reminding people to be sure that any tablet you use has a GPS and doesn’t rely on wifi connections for its locating.

– Bob
Me Gusta
Nonsuch e26U #233

Llllhlpplpplpp

J