Dear fellow Nonsuch sailers, I Like to replace the wishbone hanger lines with longer Dyneema lines and install 2 blocks on the mast fittings, where the steel hanger lines were mounted.
The new Dyneema hanger lines are then long enough to be secured at the mast collar - now I would be able to lower the wishbone anytime.
Any thoughts/advice/critiques are welcome and appreciated.
Thanks
Ed Shreiber
NS22 #39
Pangur
Lunenburg NS
Canada
Ed,
I’ve thought about doing that too. Brian Knoll described having done it on his N30, “On Location,” in an article he wrote for the Winter 2025 INA Update. He supplied some good pictures of it on page 7 of that issue.
He got hold of an extra mast collar and put it on his mast with the attachment rings facing forward, then tied the extended hanger lines off there. Without that, you’d have to come up with some other good place to secure the bitter ends.
His article doesn’t mention how he handles both port and starboard lines at once, which I’d imagine could be a little tricky. I’d enjoy being part of a brainstorming session on this topic. It’s certainly a solvable problem.
Another thing to keep in mind, I’d think, is making sure there’s a good way to reliably get the boom lifted to the same angle the fixed hanger lines ensure. Just as the aspect ratio of the different model Nonsuches differs slightly, so does the corresponding ideal angle of the wishbone. However, that’s probably as simple as measuring the fixed hangers and marking the replacement lifting lines correspondingly.
Brian doesn’t seem to be active on either the Google Discussion Group or Discourse, so I doubt if he’ll chime in. You could use the member directory on the INA website or the INA Registry to get in touch with him directly.
If you go further with this, please keep posting about it. I’m sure you’re not alone in thinking about it.
– Bob
I have exactly the same idea. I plan to do it this winter. I don’t see why it shouldn’t be done but yes it would be great to know if anyone has relevant experience or thoughts.
Ed,
That sounds like a great idea! It would of course save a lot of effort at decommissioning and commissioning. Please post photos if the invention is accomplished. I wonder if soft shackles tied into the lines at the proper height of attachment would simplify it further.
Brian Cayer
Spirit~Wind
N30U 419
Westbrook, CT
Because I helped edit the INA Update articles, I happen to have the pictures of Brian Knoll’s installation on his 1987 Nonsuch 30, On Location. (Again, see the Winter 2025 INA Update for the full article on his many upgrades.)
Here they are…
I don’t know how long Brian’s had this set up, but I gather it’s been for some time, since he commented that, “When I was younger and stronger, I could raise and lower the wishbone alone.”
– Bob
Hi, I’m in Vancouver, as such we leave our boats in the water year round, so not something I’d be likely to do. But I wonder if this topic should be sent to Mike Quill, who is on retainer with INA, to get his opinion on whether this is a good idea… or not?
Cheers
Don
My boat in Los Angeles is in the water year round, also, so my mast and wishbone don’t come down nearly as often as for folks with winter weather.
Due to a previous owner breaking the original mast in a racing accident, I have what’s probably an usual hybrid set-up: the original aluminum wishbone with a new(er) carbon fiber replacement mast. Consequently, I’m less concerned about longer mast inspection intervals than most. However, the wishbone’s another question.
Part of my interest in this idea is that it’d make it easier to inspect the wishbone for corrosion and lubricate the hanging blocks. This gets neglected when there’s no winter schedule forcing it. If I can figure out how to do this set-up, I could check on wishbone and lube the blocks once a year.
– Bob
Thanks everyone for your responses, pictures and input.
I did send Mike Quill on the INA website a request for his opinion on this topic - looking forward his response.
I think Brian’s installation is quite feasible - the additional collar is definitely a plus.
If I can install two blocks and secure the line on the mast pad-eye, it will give a 2:1 purchase and would make it a one-person job.
Ed Shreiber
Pangur
N22 #39
Lunenburg NS
Hi Ed,
I’m not a professional rigger, but I work to understand the general principles behind rig designs and modifications that I see on my boat and boats that I see in my travels.
There are safety, longevity, and performance tradeoffs behind the choices we make in both running vs standing rigging.
As I understand your proposal, you would convert your wishbone hanger cables from standing to running rigging to make it easier to lower your wishbone for inspection and service.
For Soave, I would not make this modification for the following reasons.
There is a recurring theme I’ve also been encountering… as I age things I used to do for myself get harder to do. My first inclination is to look for mechanical solutions, but I’m finding better luck using social solutions. I’m slowly learning how to invest some of my time and money to build social connections to form a community around Soave. In some ways the INA and our various user groups are helping.
Let us know what you choose.
Smooth sailing.
Rob
s/v SOAVE
NS33 #009
Cedar Point YC
Westport, CT
But that would require bringing the lines back into the cockpit and then you’d probably want safety lines which are the same as the current standing lines, which would defeat the original purpose.Goot points Brian.
To clarify, I wasn’t advocating that folks who are uncertain of their fitness to ascend the mast to do so. I was questioning if the lines to drop the wishbone make the job more doable for them. This spring I attempted to move Soave’s wishbone on her deck by myself and found that requires more strength and agility than working aloft. Let’s say it was awkward boarding on dangerous.
I also like your comment about tradition which is also something that is important to me. I’m currently reading Grayson’s biography of Joshua Slocum and soaking up all the tradition and changes he dealt with in his career. My choice of Soave runs counter to my interest in tradition… I’ll need to ponder that.
I like that that sailors ( even Slocum ) understood the value of many perspectives. His first wife Virgina is credited ( by him ) as helping him achieve many of the things he did in his early career as a captain.
Sail on…
Rob
s/v SOAVE
NS33 #009
Cedar Point YC
Westport, CT
As promised, Mike Quill’s answer:
“While it sounds like a logical solution to a perceived issue of raising and lowering the wishbone at the end of the season it actually complicates a simple rig by adding more lines. I understand where your head is at. But I have had a number of owners contact me to reverse this back to the original simpler set up.”
Fair winds
Ed
s/v PANGUR
N22 #39
Lunenburg NS
Canada
I wonder about how many blocks you would need to be able to safely, without undue physical strain, raise or lower the boom. The boom on a 22 may be manageable with only one block at the mast collar, but I suspect that on our 30, I would need at least a single block with becket at the top and a single block at the bottom. Maybe double blocks. Misjudge it and the boom comes down awfully fast, probably landing with a “boom”. Hopefully not on anyone.
Suspect you will need three people to do the task - one for each hanger line and one for the topping lift. The people at the mast will not have winches to ease their task of hauling it up.
You would need two new spots on the mast collar to attach the lower blocks and then a spot to tie it off and “lock” it.
How do you handle chafe - the lines will be running through the boom so any time you are beating, the boom is going to be laying against the lines.
How critical is having the boom level? How hard will it be to get it level with an adjustable system?
Racing - not sure if this system would be considered class legal. I just read the portion of the rules on Spars and Rigging and the hangers are not discussed. Masts and wishbones may not be altered, nor can you do anything that makes a boat different from the description in the rules. (See Register, page 71.) I would argue that the system should be allowed if the boom was maintained by the system at the height specified by the factory with standard hangers. Adjusting them for an advantage would appear to violate the spirit of a one-design vessel.
Just some thoughts.
lloyd herman
Rendezvous, 30U
Port Washington, NY
I may not know much about racing but the forward end of the boom is not going to trim the sail. Aft end yes but forward end does nothing but swing around on cables and keep the sail contained side to side.
Am I wrong?
Brian Cayer
Spirit~Wind
N30U 419
Westbrook, CT
How does the boom lower on the forward end without disconnecting the choker up at the forward end of the boom while the boom is in sailing position?
Ward Woodruff
413-847-0620 cell
Hi Brian,
Your are correct. Sail adjustments that we make are accomplished primarily by the forces we apply at the clew of our Nonsuch sails.
The choker pulls our wishbone aft which flattens our sail by adding outward and downward forces at the clew.
Because our wishbones are at an angle ( not perpendicular ) to the mast it exerts both horizontal ( outward ) and vertical ( downward ) force on the clew of our sail ( in addition to the rotational and vertical forces from our mainsheet ). The ratio of vertical to horizontal force from the wishbone is proportional to the angle according to some guy named Pythagoras.
If we change the length of the hangers, the angle of our wishbone would change ( since the clew of our sail would remain the same) thus changing the ratio between outward and downward forces it exerts.
I suspect the length of our hangers was thoughtfully chosen to balance safety and performance.
It’s amazing ( to me ) that Soave’s rig responds smartly to changing conditions with comparatively few adjustments.. I’d be afraid to mess up the delicate balance that the fixed length hangers seem to provide.
I am NOT suggesting adjustable hangers would offer benefit for racers… just that changing he angle of the wishbone would alter sail shape.
I am also not convinced that adjustable hangers would make inspection and maintenance tasks easier or safer on Soave. Ward makes a good point about the need to deal with the upper choker line.
Rob
s/v SOAVE
NS33 #009
Cedar Point YC
Westport, CT
Hi Rob and Ward,
Yes the choker line is one thing I didn’t consider, that in itself seems to be a game ender.
Brian Cayer
Spirit~Wind
N30U 419
Westbrook, CT
Going back and looking closely at Brian Knoll’s pictures, he seems to have been very careful about routing his lift lines so that they come down the forward part of the mast where the boom sides wouldn’t chafe.
I notice also that the lines are tied off at the base with 5-6 knots each. My guess is that helps discourage accidental release.
I still don’t understand how one would manage handling both lines at the same time, or how you make sure the boom’s level and at the right angle.
I asked Mike Quill once how long my N26 hanger lines should be, and he replied that every boat is different and he’d have to see a picture of my current rig. I never followed up for an explanation of why that’d be, and don’t understand it. I always thought the boom angle had to be related to the sail’s aspect ratio somehow. Since that’s standard for each Nonsuch model, why would it differ across boats of the same model? Maybe I misunderstood him.
– Bob
Hi Bob,
Maybe Mike didn’t want to quote those line lengths because you have a replacement mast and he couldn’t be sure that all of the various relative positions and proportions of things were identical to a stock mast.
We had a conversation a year or so ago when I speculated about the boom passing through the center of effort of the sail making for perfect adjustment of sail shape for power. You pointed out that the boom is actually still below the C/E, though it is much closer to it than a typical (marconi?) boom. So the choker adjustment would theoretically come closer to maintaining perfect sail shape than on a more typical rig, but still not quite. Something like that; I don’t remember exactly.
I was out in the ocean, yesterday, and was curious. We were going almost 7kts with wind at 90 degrees on the port side. A friend was feeling queasy, so I flattened the sail to see if that could somehow help. We lost 0.8 kts and I had slightly better steering. My friend also felt a bit better. (Though it could have just been because I told her that adjustment would help. A certain part of seasickness is in the mind.) Later, when I slacked the choker and put the sail back to where I liked it, I regained the 0.8 kts, almost exactly. (And her seasickness did not return.)
A while later, when back inside of the bay, we had lost some wind speed and boat speed had dropped to 5kt. Still being curious, I slacked the choker a lot - so the sail was bulging well beyond the wishbone - and we actually picked up 0.7kts. Prior to turning upwind and dropping the sail, I set the choker back to where I like it and we lost about half a knot, but it’s likely the windspeed had also changed during that time.
Because of this ongoing discussion I watched the sail shape carefully. My topping lift was slack the whole time and so the only control I had available was the choker. I’m no racer and my sail is old, but it sure looked good to my amateur eyes. From flat to very full there were no awkward pulls or strains and a nice curve through the camber of the sail from top to bottom. (Except where it bulged around the boom, of course.)
I claim no credit for this. I’m barely more than a dufus out there. I think it is the nature of the rig as long as it is setup reasonably close to stock. And while I speculated, a couple of days ago, that adjusting the height of the boom might serve to tweak the sail shape, I suspect that you’d never really notice a difference. I think the most important thing as far as boom height would be the relative position of the choker hardware on the boom and on the mast. I think you want the block on the mast and the block on the boom to be at the same height with the choker pulled all the way in, which would allow the boom to swing freely from its support lines. Higher or lower would place inappropriate stress on the hardware when the control line is at its greatest tension. The basic design will do the rest.
None of my observations apply to wind angles greater than 90-120 degrees. Maybe someday I’ll get good enough to even begin to figure out downwind sailing.
My understanding regarding Dyneema is that while super strong for its size, it does not tolerate constant exposure to the sun, hence it is not recommended for lifelines. If accurate, I’d be leery of using it to replace the wishboom hangers.
John Gialanella
NS22 #8
Tourmaline
Bolles Harbor, MI
