Beginners battery question

Hi all;

I’ve got a question about the batteries that came with my boat.

Now, my days of working on farms, checking water level, hygrometer (if I remember the name correctly) are long over, and I don’t know what kind of batteries I have.

Magnacharge. Sealed, at least no 6-round-caps and no easy-to-see pry-off caps.

They have a little round window on the top, maybe 10mm diam.

Nothing that says if they are AGM, or simply flooded. part number 24m-1000, and the company website says nothing.

I guess - does it really matter? One of the tasks for this summer is to replace the original Jeffersen battery charger with a newer one, something not '60s technology.

Any hints? Tips??

John A. Stewart
NS26C 046
Lying Kingston.

Hello John
The type of battery is important for charging. It would be best to know with certainty if they are AGM or flooded as newer battery chargers may make the distinction in terms of charging. Also newer chargers can perform equalization charging on flooded batteries but I understand that sealed batteries should not be equalized. I installed a Pronautic 30 amp 3 battery phased charger myself last summer and I’m quite happy with it. It has an excellent readout to show the charging voltage and amperage draw. I can also use it to determine the amperage draw of any 12 V item in my boat such as the draw of the fridge when cycling on and off. I spent most time determining the optimal location for the charger, bought all the necessary wire, fuse holders, fuses, and terminals etc and installed it in one day. I had to change the charger breaker on the 110 V panel from 15 amps to 10 amps to meet the manufacturer spec. Had to order the breaker from Bass Products in the US. They no longer operate as Bass as the company was acquired by another and they had only remaining stock.

Ken Dakin
NS 33 # 7
Sashay
Collins Bay Marina/ CBYC
Kingston ON

The little round window on top is a level indicator. There is a float behind it and if it is green, good, you are seeing the float, if it is red or any other colour the electrolyte is low - usually - or that’s how it’s supposed to work. Sometimes a new battery has no indication which could have happened if the battery was rolled on its side and dislodged the floaty thing inside.

My guess is if you see a little window you have a flooded battery. There probably is a cover over the 6 caps that you have to pry off then you add distilled water if/as needed and replace the caps and cover. The cover is helpful because it keeps dirt off the battery top so when you remove the caps dirt doesn’t fall into the battery. My excellent 10 year old group 31 Walmart deep discharge marine battery has this cover behind a label stuck on the top. Under the cover are the 6 clean caps. I have never had to add water. Too bad Walmart doesn’t have these in stock anymore.

The new battery chargers are very good. If the one you have is original from the factory it should be replaced.

If the charger and regulator are working properly you should not have to add water. If you set the new charger to AGM and connect it to a flooded battery you may overcharge the battery so it’s important to know what you have. Maybe your new engine has a new digital regulator as well but I know the old one on my boat just pumps out 14+ volts all the time and doesn’t really fully charge the battery.

Tom
26C #28
North Star
Penetanguishene

One other point about chargers is, on a flooded battery, what kills them is 1 leaving them over the winter in a discharged state and 2 fast charging.

If they are discharged in the cold they can freeze.
Charging a discharged battery quickly will heat and warp the plates. My car owners manual even states that if you jumpstart the car turn on the lights heater fan and rear window defogger to protect the battery from really high currents at first.

So a deep discharge is not what kills them, it is the high current or a cold night on a discharged battery.

A high current charger is not necessary because you are plugged into the dock for hours anyway so don’t be tempted to buy the powerful one.

Tom

Many thanks for the emails regarding my battery questions.

Ok, lets see:

  • if I gently slosh them about, I can hear water inside. Possibly there’s one large cover that can be pried off to add distilled water, if required. So, “standard lead-acid” it looks like;

  • the little window (Thanks Tom for the insight) shows clear; will get a flashlight down to where they are stored and have a good look;

  • the previous owners did not do overnight anchoring, I believe it was mainly day-sailing, or maybe going to a marina which had a B&B nearby. I don’t expect lots of deep cycles on the batteries;

  • Barry - you are right about the old 55 amp alternator; the new engine going in as we speak has a 70-amp one. However, for now, it also has the diode isolator still; will update to a combiner when I’m doing the wiring, I might as well do a good job on it.

Likely these batteries will be replaced before we do a long journey; however with COVID-19 and our boat maybe touching water early July, we’ll likely not be doing the Kingston-Toronto-Niagara trip we had planned to lazily do this summer. We’ll see.

Many thanks - John A. Stewart NS26C 046 with a shiny Beta20 and new sound insulation, Kingston ON.

John,

This is a bit later in getting out.

A complete discussion of batteries takes a long time and a lot of electrons. If you go to the INA site, in the maintenance section, you can find an presentation entitled Batteries 101. It was written for an oral presentation so does not read the same as an essay. It does contain a fair amount of info.

The regulator that comes with the alternator on the Beta engines is basically a standard car style regulator. It is not a smart regulator.

I don’t know who said it first but I heard it from Jeff Cote, a marine electrician specialist in B.C. and owner of Pacific Yacht Systems Inc. He said “Most batteries don’t die of natural causes, they are murdered by their owners.” Some of us don’t understand the care and feeding requirements of the type of battery we have and in some instances we have the wrong battery type for the job at hand.

Batteries are often classified by chemistry and purpose. For marine use the most common chemistries are lead acid and lithium. Lead acid batteries are broken down into subcategories - wet cells, gels, absorbed glass mat (AGM) and carbon foam. Wet cells can be standard batteries, low maintenance or no maintenance (sealed). Standard wet cell batteries have removable caps that allow you to add distilled water to the battery. When the batteries are charged the acid will boil and release hydrogen gas. Water is lost in the process. If the batteries lose enough water that the top of the lead plates are exposed they can be damaged when electricity flows in or out. Sealed batteries are no maintenance and water can’t be added. If too high of charge voltage is applied the battery will lose water. The only option is to replace the battery. Gel, AGM and carbon foam batteries are seal so water can’t be added. Gel batteries should be charged at about 14.1-14.2 volts. Standard alternators charge at 14.4 volts. Many gel batteries have been destroyed by standard alternators and therefore have ceased to be used by many people. The most common lithium battery chemistry used in boats is lithium iron phosphate (LiFePO4). In terms of purpose there are starting batteries, deep cycle and dual purpose batteries. These categories apply more to wet cell batteries than to the other types. AGMs, carbon foam and Lithium all produce plenty of power for high demand loads and provide decent cycle life for house bank loads. Golf cart batteries usually are 6Volt wet cell lead acid batteries. They are robust, available and cheap. They do not require any special charging system but they do require topping up with distilled water periodically. Generally they are taller than most 12v batteries so depending on where they are installed the height could be an issue. They must be installed standing up. Taken care of they are still one of the cheapest batteries for amp hours delivered;

AGMs are now the most commonly installed batteries for boats - they are probably the most expensive battery per amp hr given back, however they can be charged using a standard wet volt charging system, they can be installed on their side and they don’t require topping up with water so are lower maintenance than wet cells. They accept a charge faster than a golf cart battery but the difference is not great (Lifeline suggests 20% faster). Most AGMs will not tolerate an equalization or condition charge. If wet cell batteries or AGMs are left in a partial state of discharge they will lose capacity. Over time the capacity keeps dropping and in a few short years the batteries are finished. Some may be saved by reconditioning charges. It takes a long time to charge wet cell or AGMs much beyond 80% of charge with just an alternator so if you are out cruising and anchoring out a lot, the batteries may suffer. If you discharge wet cells or AGMs below 40 of 50% you will significantly shorten their life. It varies from battery to battery but going down to 20% of state of charge might reduce the number of cycles they will deliver to 150-300 cycles. Discharged to 50% they might give 700-1000 cycles. Cruising without going to docks or having alternate charging sources generally means you can only realistically use 30% of your banks rated capacity if you want to achieve reasonable battery life. When I bought La Reina she needed new batteries. I considered golf cart batteries but they were too tall to fit under the quarter berth so I went with Lifeline group 31 AGMs rated at 105 amp hrs each. They were about 2x the cost of golf cart batteries at the time. I installed them in March of 2005. I am in the process of replacing them this week. so I think they were worth the extra purchase price. Most people do not get that many years out of batteries.

Today Firefly carbon foam and lithium batteries are picking up in popularity. Firefly batteries are a specific type of lead acid battery first developed to a practical form by Caterpillar. The rights have been sold to a company in India. When the India company first took over they had some quality control issues. I don’t know if those have been fully worked out. The Firefly have more charging cycles, they can be charged with a standard wet cell charging regime but they work better with a custom set up. They are more tolerant of deep discharges and being left in partial state of discharge than other lead acid battery types. Conditioning charges will recover lost capacity. If memory serves me correctly they are rated at 3000 charge cycles if discharged to 50% and 1000 if discharged to 20%. They also have a high acceptance rate so can be charged closer to 100% capacity faster than wet cell or AGMs. Availability is still limited. In my neck of the woods retail price for a 100 amp hr group 31 Firefly and a 125 amp hr group 31 Lifeline are about the same (about $900 Cdn).

Lithium batteries come in different chemistries but for marine use LiFO4 is the standard. They cost more money than lead acid. Battleborn batteries have a pretty good reputation and price. A 100 amp hr group 31 sells for $1322.00 Canadian in Canada (SolaCity Inc in Ontario). Other high quality ones sell for over $2500. You can find cheaper ones but they are built to the price and do not have good battery management systems (BMS). A good BMS is essential with lithium batteries. Lithium batteries have specific charging requirements. With the exception of Trojan’s new Trilium they can’t be charged at temperatures below freezing. They do not tolerate a float charge. They have a high acceptance rate and will burn out a standard alternator unless you take steps to protect it. Battleborn sells a device taht will shut the alternator off after 20 minutes to let it cool down.Lithium maintain constant voltage until they are deeply discharged which is good for electronic instruments. They will die if they are discharged much below 10% so the BMS system will shut them off when they reach 10%. They do not really like being charged to 100%. Some manufactures rate the battery based on full potential capacity others do it based on usable capacity so direct comparisons can be difficult. They do not like high temperatures. More of a problem in the tropics than Ontario.

The cost per amp hr is interesting. A 100 amp hr group 31 Battleborn will have about 90 usable amp hours. It takes 2 - 125 amp hour group 31 Lifeline AGMs to give similar usable amp hours if they are discharged to 40%. The retail price for the 2 Lifelines would be about $1800 or $500 more than the Battleborn. My shore power charger can cope with the lithium but I would need to protect the alternator so the price becomes about the same after the alternator protection is purchased, however I have access to the Lifeline batteries at a discount and 2 will run me about $1160 so about $400 less than one Battleborn with alternator protection. The numbers get more interesting because the charge cycles for the Battleborn using 90 amp hrs will be about 1000 to 1200. For the lifeline discharging to 40% will give about 500 to 750 cycles. It gets more complicated because I won’t always discharge either battery that deeply. Assume I deeply discharge the batteries 50 times a year (deep discharge almost every day on 8 weeks of cruising) that works out to about 10 years for the LIfeline and over 20 years for the Battleborn. I decided to go with another set of LIfelines in part because they are immediately available and it is a straight switch to install the new ones.

Mark Powers
La Reina 26C
Vancouver, B.C.

Mark; (and others)

Thank you all for the informative emails, and Mark for the latest email and the phone call earlier in the week.

Like anything, the more you dive into a topic, the more there is to learn. It makes life both interesting and frustrating at the same time.

Currently, I’ve got two Series 24 wet cells that I’ll pry the covers off and check the levels. They are floating at 12.64v to 12.66v; as they are relatively light they are here at home and do get the odd charge (Ernie, I know…). They seem to be doing well once stable at the 12.64-12.66 level. The previous owners did not overnight at anchor, mainly day-sailing, so crossing fingers.

I do understand electricity fairly well, it’s the battery technology that I’m very weak at. I’ve got an older copy of the ABYC electrical section, and it makes for easy and enjoyable reading. Yeah, I know, I’m a geek; nothing finer than skimming through a mint copy of “Transistors - Theory and Circuitry (K. J. Dean 1964)” to put one to sleep. :wink:

Still hoping for a call saying Cat’s Whiskers is ready for dipping her toes; hope it comes sooner than later.

JohnS. NS26 046, Kingston ON.

Batteries that are “light” are start batteries. Even the 6 v golf cart batteries weigh north of 60 lbs…

I have had excellent service from Trojan and Interstate. Costco sell excellent golf cart batteries as well.