Morning all,
Please let this post serve as a request to see the level of interest for a workshop on lithium batteries similar to a workshop on diesel engines last year at Stratford Safe Harbor marina , Ct.
Lithium is a complex subject, but the intent here is to simplify with a system that could be added to a Nonsuch (or any other boat really) that involves the minimum amount of work and expense. The event will be on a Saturday morning ( probably December 13)and in the general location of New Haven Ct.
Please sound off if youād be interested in attending. At present (until I secure the location) there would be no cost to the participant unless they stay for lunch. Thanks, Gary
(Western Long Island Sound Nonsuch Group)
Ward.Woodruff
(Ward Woodruff N33 #8 Margery Niantic Bay, CT)
2
I am very interested in attending your proposed workshop. Any chance this workshop could be in person but also virtual, via ZOOM, TEAMS, or similar platform?
I second the notion of putting the seminar online. Connecticut is a bit of a hike from Virginia but I am interested in the program. Iām sure there are others in my situation but I understand that this adds more complexity for the organizers.
While you are right to focus on lithium, the main option to lead/acid right now, it might be nice to touch on Carbon-Lead and Sodium Ion batteries as well. I recall that Thor is either considering or already has the Carbon-lead batteries and maybe someone else? Sodium ion batteries are just becoming affordable and commercially available in Asia and will probably be widely available here in the US within a couple of years. They are very similar to Lithium ion (but maybe not LiPO4?) but have some advantages and disadvantages. For one thing, they are not prone to fire or explosions. And there is an almost unlimited supply of sodium, while the supply of lithium is very limited.
I cannot attend, but Iād sure like to see a recording of the presentation. Thank you for organizing it!
Gary,
I have interest in this event and will be looking forward to more information as it comes available.
I enjoyed the diesel workshop and also Robs video last year.
Brian and everyone,
I share your interest in the variety of battery chemistries that are in development. I also find it interesting to see the role of power management grow in marine applications. It seems like along with investment in storage one has to also invest in power management, although some systems are sold as bundled solutions so management is hidden from the end-user.
In the abstract, our boats all have one or more of each energy source ( shore power, alternator, solarā¦ ), energy storage ( batteries, cold boxes, hot water tanks ) , and energy consumer ( navigation controls, lighting, compressor, windlass , electric winch, hot water heater, water maker, propulsionā¦ ). Depending on the equipment on our boat and use patterns, the āoptimal systemā will vary.
Two variables seem to dominate power management design strategy :
Shore power availability.
Energy source used for propulsion.
The nonsuch boats Iāve seen, seem to fall into a couple general categories :
Diesel aux propulsion with shore power being available 90% or more of the time might represent 75 % of boats.
Diesel aux propulsion with shore power being available 10% or less of the time might represent 20 % of boats.
Electric propulsion makes up the balance and probably has subcategories.
Soave is currently in the first category, and I have interest in preparing her for extended periods without shore power, in our likely cruising range there are plenty of spots to pull into that would provide shore power, so enough storage capacity to go 4-5 days between recharge may be sufficient. Probably less than a 10 times a year.
Iām thinking the case for solar ( on Soave ) is pretty weak and the incremental value of each additional contiguous day untethered from power may diminish beyond 3 days, but having an extensible power management system that I could add days if needed by adding more batteries would be nice.
Iām interested in how other Nonsuch owners are seeing the power requirements on their boats.
Also interested in solutions others feel have been effective.
Rob
s/v SOAVE
NS33 #009
Cedar Point YC
Westport, CT
My boat is in your first category. But I am considering adding a solar array somewhere just for added battery protection. The reason is that a couple of months ago my circuit breaker got turned off by mistake* and the boat was left on battery power (with the fridge running) for a week. When I arrived the batteries were dead and would not take a decent charge until I bought a smart charger with a repair function and used it on them. They seem to be OK, which is a huge relief because replacing my two good quality group 31 AGMs would have run around a boat buck and Iād rather spend that on an upgrade rather than a goof. A solar array with enough juice to keep the batteries topped up in case of a power failure should cost a lot less than new batteries and give me some piece of mind.
As I understand it, lithium batteries are more tolerant of this kind of deep discharge, though Iām not sure exactly how tolerant they are.
* Two extremely eager and energetic friends were tying up at the end of a daysā sailing and I asked them to flip the breaker on after Iād screwed in the cable. One of them flipped the breaker, but the other didnāt notice so she flipped it, too. On, off. Didnāt there used to be three of us? I didnāt see it and was so tired I didnāt think to check. (I do now.)
In response to some of the questions asked,
ā We will need approximately 25 to 30 people to meet a minimum to run this event at no cost. So far I think we have six? Diesel workshop had 35 in attendance last year.
ā we will probably record the event thanks to Rob Cohen, offering to do so. We will not however, broadcast it live as there are a number of privacy issues and feel that this would dilute the attendance level, which is important. Iām suggesting the New Haven Ct area as to attract those west and east of Stratford Shoals in Long Island Sound.
ā although carbon lead and even solid state, batteries are of interest this workshop will focus on lithium. If thereās an opportunity to touch on the newest technology as well we will incorporate that into the program.Solar being incorporated to a system will also be included.
ā Rob brings up an interesting subject. Why and how are we trying to increase our house battery bank? I believe as Rob has also outlined it comes down to use of the boat. If youāre tied up at a dock versus at a mooring and you daysail vs hang on a hook while aboard your needs will be different. What creature comfort systems must you have aboard to be comfortable. How often must you run an engine to charge and for how long? If the event takes place, Iāll outline a framework for those who attend to ask themselves.
Pls comment & thanks, Gary
Unfortunately, interest in the lithium upgrade for Nonsuch start and house systems is not generating enough involvement. If we donāt get a 25 guest minimum itās not feasible to run the event. Weāve had an about 12-15 members indicate an interest thus far. Please sound off if youāre interested as if we donāt have the numbers by mid November, the event will be cancelled. Itās a free event.
But to recap , (this is based on an upgrade Iām doing on Aloki over this winter)
Currently, Aloki has the following in place (batteries are now 8 yrs old and not holding charge as they once did)
Start - one 105 Ahrs AGM firefly battery
House - three 105 Ahrs AGM firefly batteries. Wired such as to āprovideā a 315 Ahrs bank
The upgrade ,
Start battery - still a winner and staying (still an AGM battery )
House - replacing batteries in place with two 200Ahr LiPho Victron batteries.
With the addition of a dc/dc charger the lithium batteries will be charged via the start battery . The battery charger remains and will only charge the start battery. The primary battery āselectorā switch will be replace with an āon/offā switch.
The Proās
Increased house bank that charges in 1/3 the time the AGM batteries did. More useable amp hours as lithium can be brought down substantially more than Lead Acid Batteries. Better monitoring systems for state of charge. Less battery weight , three AGMs weigh 230# and two LiPho weigh 84# with 100 Ahrs more than the three AGMās. Longer battery life span. There are more advantages and safeguards but you get the idea. Thatās the point of the event.
Anyway, ball is in your court. If you all have other ideas for workshops, please share your thoughts, best Gary
Gary Forster / Aloki / Oyster Bay NY
Sorry this didnāt work out ā it was really nice of you to make the effort, Gary.
In a separate thread on battery placement for N26s, it was noted that Rod Collins of Marine How-to has posted a commentary on LifePO4 batteries. It turns out to be the next-best thing to the seminar you were organizing:
BTW, for those who donāt recognize him, Rod Collins has long been a very useful resource for information on all sorts of maintenance topics. Many long-term Nonsuch owners have relied upon his advice. He had a stroke in 2021 and this new post is the very first thing heās been healthy enough to write since then. To learn more about him, and all he has to offer, take a look at: About - Marine How To
