My 30+ year old bukh diesel saildrive died at the end of the season. Oil leaked and siezed. Don’t want to talk about it. Quote on a new saildrive is more than I paid for the boat. I’m thinking of closing the hole and mounting an outboard. Any advice would be welcome
Who are you and where does the boat lie??
Joe Valinoti
S/V iL Gatto NS30U #221
Sea Harbour YC
Oriental, NC USA
How big is the hole you’d have to close?
– Bob
Me Gusta
Nonsuch 26U #233
Hi Steven -
Happy new year. Along with others, I can feel your frustration and upset. It is palpable, frankly, but, sadly understandable.
I own NS 22 #56 MOUSTACHES, up in Toronto. It is one of the boats that was built for an outboard. It’s powered by a relatively new Tohatsu 9.8 with electric start and electric tilt (well worth the few hundred extra bucks, especially if your back and shoulders are somewhat shot and are 70+ years old). The motor is mounted on one of those swing-up motor mounts. That way, it is a little further behind the transom, leaving enough room for it to swing up. I don’t believe that your boat has an opening in the transom for an outboard to swing up, right ?? So, you have to mount the motor sufficiently aft such that it has enough room to tilt up. The boat came with this mount and an older engine with no power tilt. You don’t necessarily need an articulated mount like mine (especially if you have electric tilt). You just have to make sure that there is enough space aft of the transom. There are engine mounts that are simply “spacers”, like a box-type structure, that mount the engine around 10" (or more ??) further aft.
You’ll get lots of suggestions and get quicker help and more responses if you let us know where you are, etc. and, especially, if you can take some quick photos and attach them to a follow-up. As Bob Neches remarked, it would be really good to know more about that “hole”. I’ve attached a couple of shots of my engine.
Good luck with this situation.
Ernie A. in Toronto
I suppose you could just take off the prop to cut down on drag, and then leave the saildrive as is (and switch to an outboard), assuming that the saildrive rubber seal is in good shape. But then if the seal is also 30 years old, it should be replaced for safety reasons, and that is not cheap or easy (as least on my Volvo Penta saildrive). And it would seem to just be kicking the ball down the road, so to speak, since if you went with an outboard, there would be lots of good reasons to remove the saildrive and diesel.
Mike
NS30 - #26
Port Moody BC
Consider going electric. Saildrive electric systems are much better than shaft versions for having less propwalk and less friction, so they are much more efficient than the older tech gear reduction box and shaft system that I am using.
Brian Monrad
Cattitude
Fossil-free NS 26 Ultra
Midland ON (relocated from Toronto via Trent Severn Waterway without using fossil fuel!)
I was lucky to get a tour of the innards of Cattitude (Brian Monrad’s boat) shortly after he converted it to electric. One could have performed brain surgery in the engine compartment. It looked like an installation by NASA. He knows about electric propulsion (as, to be fair, do a few other Nonsuchers. who have gone this route).
But … we are talking about an NS22, not a 26. Given the smaller size and limitations of the boat (and its value), I just don’t think that the cost of this entire system, etc., is worth it. I think (perhaps incorrectly) that electrifying an NS22 would cost almost the same as an NS26. and that’ll buy you a few good outboards. I would only electrify a Nonsuch of 26’ or longer.
All of that said, one could install a lovely and lightweight, silent, and clean Torqueedo 6 (= 9.9 HP) and its battery but, in the USA, that’ll cost around 13 K. It would involve robbing a bank in Canada.
A Tohatsu like mine will run you around $3500. USD pretax. Considering all the numbers, I’d fix the hole and go for an outboard.
Ernie A. in Toronto
I once had a 25’ sailboat with an outboard and it was possible to steer the outboard. It was a dream to manoeuvre.
Also I am wondering how an outboard figures into the conversation about gybing.
Mike Jennings.
NS005. Chancy.
Port Moody BC.
My biggest problem with gybing (besides being a chicken AND listening to the good advice of Ed Botterell) is having the mainsheet snarl on whatever is rigged on the stern rail. I don’t really think that my engine (which sits way lower than even the deck) would get in the way of a flying mainsheet.
Or, did I misunderstand you ?
Ernie A. in Toronto
You got it right, I was imagining an outboard dangling from the main sheet.
Mike.
Basically you need to feather the hole back 12 times the depth of the hole. Then layer in the glass and mat. Plenty of utube videos and attached is a West System guide. If you get an outboard, get a long shaft model. I have been told that in the 9.9 range and below only Honda, Yamaha and Tohatsu manufacture engines, anyone else is a re-branded Tohatsu. As well there are many electric motors to chose from, particularly if you mainly day sail.
(attachments)
0121-Fiberglass-Boat-Repair-and-Maintenance-Manual-lr.pdf (4.04 MB)
In addition to Ernie’s suggestion of the German made Torqueedo the, there is also the ePropulsion. It’s made in China, with better specs, and cheaper, as are many Chinese electronics. I have one for my dingy. They have several models, including one that is specifically designed for a sailboat in that it is regenerative.
Sorry, hit send by accident… With the regenerative models, if prop is left in the water while sailing, it will recharge the batteries. Very easy to handle, quiet, no gas or oil, and very little maintenance.
Cheers,
Don
NS30U #369 Breezin’
Vancouver BC
Steven -
Don is quite correct. ePropulsion makes a terrific line of electric motors, batteries, controllers and, very interestingly, “pods” (saildrive-type pods that contain motors). They have both 6 hp “outboard” types and pods. I think these motors would provide the same kind of power as 9.8 outboard.
Unfortunately, the cost, even in the USA, for a motor, battery (maybe more $$$$ than the motor), the controller, etc.) would run an absolute minimum of $11 K or somewhat more.
If I understand correctly, your engine and saildrive is shot and you have a hole in the bottom of the boat to repair.
If it was me, given the size and value of the vessel itself, I would purchase a new gas outboard. I’d install a fixed outboard bracket on to the transom. A cantilevering bracket is strong enough but a fixed one is stronger. A fixed one costs a bit more than $100. while a cantilevering one runs around $300.00. The nice thing about power tilt is you effortlessly raise the engine out of the water as you sail and you have no drag. Sweet, trust me. I would purchase a Honda 9.9 outboard with electric start and power tilt. Cost - around $ 4 K.
https://www.powerequipmentdirect.com/Honda-Marine-BFP10D3XHT-Engines/p62852.html
This is the most sophisticated, quiet and smooth engine out there. It’ll hold its value and run for years. Or, go for a close second (a Tohatsu like mine - a bit more noise and vibration but a highly reliable and popular engine.) that’ll run you round, maybe, $3200.
https://onlineoutboards.com/products/2022-tohatsu-9-9-hp-mfs9-9eeftl-outboard-motor
Any outboard that you buy should have an ultra or extra long shaft, not a “long shaft”. If you go down this whole road, take lots and lots of time to very carefully figure out at what height you should install the outboard bracket on the transom such that the engine sits at the correct depth in the water, when it is running at a decent clip. It has to sit deep enough (but not too deep).
Now that I mention this, I have to admit that having a cantilevering engine mount does allow one to fiddle with how low the engine sits in the water. Hmmmm … maybe worth the extra bucks.
That, in a nutshell, is my thought on all of this.
Ernie A. in Toronto
There is a good discussion about re-powering an H boat on Cruising Anarchy:
There were a few teething issues but the owner sounds pretty happy.
Peter Moodie
Nonsuch 30U Catalyst 366
Sidney,BC/Winnipeg,MB
Most gas station gas have ethanol in it and given the marine environment soon you will have water in the tank. I even noticed it with he Honda 2 I fill from one gallon Jerry cans. Anecdotally I’ve noticed that Tohatus’s seem to be more effected than Honda’s and Yamaha’s by this.
Some marinas sell pure gas and there are a few gas stations that cater to the old car and sports car market that sell 97 without ethanol. I toss some K100 in just to be safe.
As far as “money no object” for e motors, this is what I would use.
While we were out practicing a man overboard drill in gusty conditions, the mainsheet snagged on the boarding ladder feet as we sat head to wind with the sheet slack. An outboard sticking out the rear of the boat would have been at serious risk. Snugging up the mainsheet once she was in irons would make sense.
Mark Powers
Steven,
You have a lot of things to think about.
You have a Bukh diesel with a sail drive. Is the sail drive leg okay and the diesel seized, the leg shot but the engine okay or are both shot? If you have to only replace part of the drive train it might be cheaper. As Mike from Parfett pointed out, if the seal between the hull and the sail drive leg is old it will need replacing and will not be cheap.
Bukh diesels have a good reputation. If you can do the work yourself you might consider a rebuild.
Did you seek a quote from Beta Marine in the U.S.A. on a 14 hp with sail drive? They are located in North Carolina and are very helpful. The cost might be higher than you want.
I have not been involved in installing an outboard on a 22 Nonsuch but I belonged to a sailing cooperative for a number of years that installed outboards on several Grampion 26s and a C&C 27. I did not help on the install on the Grampions but I did th install on the C&C. On the Grampions the back stay was split so that it attached to the outside corners of the transom. This allowed the transom to be cut down. The transom was then reinforced with U shaped stainless channel and the outboards were mounted on standard swing down motor mounts clamped to the transom. The outboard could be steered and the standard controls worked. 9.9 Yamahas were used. With the C&C we did not cut the transom. The motor mount had two parallel pipes bolted to the transom. A mounting plate slide up and down on the rails. The motor was attached to the plate. We used a large screw to raise and lower the motor. This was turned with a ratchet or an electric drill. The controls were difficult to reach and the boat did not handle as well as it had with the shaft drive Atomic Four. We modified the system so that the engine could be steered which required that the motor be moved further back. We bought longer cables and made a custom control arm to steer the boat and hold the engine controls. Because the boat had already been set up for gasoline were able to keep the fuel tank in the lock that housed the original tank. In bigger seas the engine would alternate between the prop coming out of the water and power head being submerged. Overall the change worked for the club because the outboard was easier for new members to sue without causing damage. The Grampions worked better with the conversions than the C&C.
On the 22 Nonsuch, I don’t know if you will be able to make a cutout in the transom to match the one on Ernie’s boat. If you can it is likely you will have to reinforce the transom around the cut out. Such an approach will allow you to keep the motor as far forward as possible which will help with weight distribution and reduce the chances of the prop lifting clear of the water in a sea way. If you decide not to do a cut out the closer you can keep the outboard to the transom the better. You will likely need to buy longer cables and you will have to decide if you buy the remote control mount or if you strap the throttle and gear shift to the tiller. Most of the Yamahas had the shift lever mounted on the outboard steering arm near the throttle. Some other makes have the shift lever mounted on the side of the engine. That makes it hard to work to control engine. It is better to have the remote mount in that case. You will have to decide where you keep the fuel tank. If you want to put it in a locker the locker will have to be sealed off from the rest of the boat and be self draining.
Here is a link to a Tohatsu website that provides free shipping in the U.S. Tohatsu makes extra long shaft (25") in a number of engine sizes. Electric tilt does not appear to be available until you hit the 9.9 hp size. 9.9 hp is a magic number in Canada because at 10 hp and above the vessel must be registered. Below 10 hp registration is not required.
The 6 hp comes in extra long shaft, manual start and a 5 amp alternator. It weights 61 pounds and costs $1689.00. The 9.9 with extra long shaft, electric start and tilt has a 12 amp alternator, weights 121 pounds and costs $2899.00. The shift controls are mounted just in front of the engine. A very rough estimate would be an additional $1000-$2000 for controls, cables fuel tanks and motor mounts ( assuming you do the work yourself).
The ePropulsion systems are interesting. They have Pod drives (like a sail drive but the engine is in the water) that they rate as equivalent to a 9.9 hp. The costs is about $2900 for the engine. You have to add $450 for remote control and then $2000 for a battery that will give about 22 miles at 5 knots or $4000 for a battery the will give about 44 miles at 5 knots. I don’t know if those prices include the battery charger. At 4 knots sailing you will get zero regeneration power and at 5 knots you will get about 250 watts. So 4 hours of sailing at 5 knots would put about 10 miles of range back in the batteries. You would need solar power to keep up with your house battery loads when you are away from the dock. The Pod weighs about 70 pounds and the batteries 105 and 191 respectively. The 9.9 electric outboard would have similar costs. Because the motor in the pod is in the water it is critical that the seals be maintained. ePropulsion seems to be less money than Torqeedo and gets good reviews. My Torqeedo experience has not been a happy one.
There are pros and cons for all of the engine choices. The diesel with give the best range and the bets charging for the house bank. It also gives the potential for hot water. A sail drive does not suffer the problems of an outboard with the prop coming out of the water followed by the head being buried in the water as you go through big waves. A gas powered out board gives reasonable range and quick refills but you do have to think about storing the fuel. Realistically you will need to have shore power to charge the batteries on an electric if you travel longer distances. A small portable generator can help with that. If I remember correctly Captain Mike on Bianca says he can motor at about 3.5 knots on a Honda 2000 portable generator. An outboard will have the costs associated with fibreglassing in the old sail drive hole. That is not a technically difficult job but it is critical that it be done right. You have to decide if you can do it yourself or have to pay someone to do it.
I agree with Thor that OceanVolt is one of the best electric systems but it is by far the most expensive.
Have a meeting coming up so no time to proof read.
Mark Powers
Steven -
We’d all like more info from you - is the motor pooched ? Is only the saildrive shot ?
I agree with a lot of what this gang has to say. Personally, I think that Mark’s quoted price for an ePropulsion pod, bought in the USA, is low. I think that it’ll cost you more and so will the battery. I still think that any electric motor conversion will run you at least $11 K and, sadly, that just might be too much to pay to power a little NS22 through the waves (no matter how much you love the boat. If you are like me, you LOVE the boat.). Not being certain of your circumstances, there may be a lot of merit to repairing the drive and/or repairing the engine and/or replacing the seal. If impossible or truly unfeasible, in my humble opinion, a good gas outboard is the way to go. And, yup, you’ll have to properly fill that hole in the boat’s bottom.
Honestly, I see no need for major surgery to cut a big hole in the transom, etc. It would only be there to accept the top of a tilted engine. that’s why I advocate bolting on some type of (mildly) extended transom. BUT (a big but) I did forget about something. All of the NS22 O/B boats have a heavily reinforced transom in the area that one would “hang” an outboard (the place where you’d “screw” the motor on). You can see this from the inside, down in the “unfinished basement” under the cockpit. It looks like 2’ - 3’ long, 10" wide length of good 3/4" ply heavily glassed in to the inside of the transom, making the area good and thick.
I have attached a lovely and highly detailed illustration.
Cheers,
Ernie A. in Toronto
Sorry, I forgot. As a sailor of an NS22 O/B, I’d definitely go for a 9.8 or 9.9 O/B, not a 6 hp. Not to shove around a boat that weighs almost 6000 lbs.
Ernie A. in Toronto