Nonsuch 33 for old timers?

Hi,
I was wondering if a Nonsuch 33 would be a good choice for a couple of old folks who want to keep sailing. We’re looking for something to take out in the ocean off of San Diego. Mostly day sails, occasionally to Catalina. We’d like a big heavy boat that won’t bash our old bodies around too much, but the immense overhead costs of owning a boat in this town preclude that. So we’re looking for something smaller and safe. We absolutely need a boat that won’t require us to go on deck while out on the ocean.
Does the Nonsuch 33 seem like a good candidate for us to look at. I know of one that might be coming up for sale.
How do you gybe a Nonsuch 33? It looks iffy, but I’ve never sailed one before. (I own an 11’ Wittholtz catboat dinghy but that’s too small for comparison.)
Thanks!

–Brian Godfrey

Brian,

I can’t speak to the Nonsuch 33 specifically, because my experience is largely with my own current and previous 26s and my friend Phil’s 36. I can say that Phil is 81 and manages his boat just fine.

The keys to making the boat manageable for older folks are to make sure that it’s properly rigged with sufficient blocks and winches for the size and weight of the sail, routed to minimize friction of the lines. (That sounds like something special, but is actually standard for most Nonsuchs in good condition.) An electric winch or a power assist such as the Winchrite, E-Wincher, or homespun devices using a power drill with a specialized bit that fits the winches helps a lot.

Another consideration which many Nonsuch sailors, young or old, appreciate for work reduction is a top-zipping sail cover integrated with the lazy jack system. Again, there are several commercial solutions such as the stack-packs sold by Doyle, Mack, and other sail- and canvas- makers, as well as several homespun solutions. The latter set includes the ones I have on my 26 and Phil has on his 36, as well as an alternative one developed by past International Nonsuch Association President Ted Eedson that’s very well described under “Members Tips and Projects”" on the members-only side of the Nonsuch.org website.

There is nothing on any of the Nonsuchs that would force you out of the cockpit on the ocean as long as all equipment is functioning properly.

Your question about gybing a Nonsuch 33 is likely to trigger a replay of an ongoing religious debate on this topic.

The most conservative approach which in fact is recommended by one of the original Nonsuch sailmakers, Ed Botterell, is to simply do a 270 degree tack rather than a gybe. His argument was that this is safe, easy, and that the boats are agile enough that very little speed is lost in a well-executed turn. Some people consider that to be “chicken” and have used that to derisively refer to that approach as a “chicken” gybe, but Boterrell’s point was that it’s important to recognize that catboats are different and you’re entitled to sail them differently. You don’t sail a square-rigger the same way you sail a sloop, either.

At the other end, experienced Nonsuch sailors and racers are fond of a gybing approach unique to Nonsuchs called the, “Hudson River Gybe,” because a number of early how-to videos which suggested using it were filmed there. (Those videos are also available on the members side of the INA website at Nonsuch.org.) This consists of a button-hook maneuver. I’ll leave it to others to describe in detail because I’m not an expert at it. A number of Nonsuch sailors are very good at it and swear by it. It is arguably faster than a 270 tack when properly executed, and more dangerous if not. Whether it is enough faster to be worthwhile is part of the religious debate. I personally recommend that it’s not for beginners, but is worth looking into if you are experienced, good at judging the wind, and know your boat well.

In between those two approaches is how it’s usually done on sloops – pull the sail in all the way before making the turn, then ease it out very quickly. Personally, I split the difference by using this approach in light air and the conservative approach in heavy air.

The one thing in your post that I’d be a little discouraging about is your plans for Catalina trips. That concern has nothing to do with Nonsuchs. I live in Los Angeles, have kids in San Diego, and brought a previous boat (a 42’ sailing catamaran) up from Mexico. So, I’ve done the San Diego-Catalina route a few times, both with the cat and with a 36 foot sloop before that. My general experience has been that, unless you’re willing go well offshore first and then change course, the trip involves a lot of motoring into the wind. It doesn’t really matter what kind of boat you have if the wind and waves are coming from exactly the direction you want to head. On the other hand, since I wasn’t based in San Diego, I never had the luxury of waiting until conditions were favorable and then saying, “Hey, this looks like a good time to make the trip.”

– Bob

Me Gusta
Nonsuch 26U #233

Thank you, Bob, for the great answers!

Sorry about the gybe question. I didn’t mean to step in someone’s religion. I hope I don’t set something off, but it did look a little iffy. I’ll do the chicken gybe. I’m not terribly interested in peer pressure or coolness, just in having a good time. And turning 270 degrees sounds a lot more fun that turning 90, anyway. I’ll just train my wife to go “wheeeee!” while we do it and maybe others won’t even notice that I’m being chicken.

Being retired I can plan my sailing around the weather, including trips to Catalina or elsewhere. Hopefully I will have the sense to actually do so.

Hi Brian,

Bob Neches has given you chapter and verse, I can only add that, at 83, I have no problem sailing my Nonsuch 30 that I have owned and loved for twenty years. And yes Bob, I’m a devout chicken, I pride my self I can do a fast 270 while those sloop rigged guys are fumbling with lines and getting themselves all sorted out.

Alan Steward,
30C # 144 MagnifiCat
Loyalist Cove Marina
Lake Ontario

Brian: Doing a Hudson River Gybe is not a big deal if you practice it. I do it all the time in winds over 20. Just a reminder of how we sign our posts.

Joe Valinoti
S/V iL Gatto NS30U #221
Sea Harbour YC
Oriental, NC USA

Hi Brian,

You came to the right place for your question. I think the responses thus far are right on. Bob laid it out as clear as it can get. I wondered what you mean by “old folks”. I guess I have those days ahead of me sometime. I’m 81 (just a young pup) and at my tender age my Nonsuch 30 works just fine for me. But some day when I get older I best start thinking about the right boat for me. Just thought about it and it’ll probably be my Nonsuch 30 C. I went from a Nonsuch 22 to a Nonsuch 30 and I find that the 30 is just as easy to sail as was my 22. I suspect the same will apply to a 33 should I ever go that route. I do think that the Winch Rite or an electric halyard winch may help somewhat. The biggest negative to the upgrade were the marina fees. Someone mentioned about consideration to the Nonsuch 30. Good idea. Keep in mind that the cockpit and interior of a 30 is larger than most 36 other make boats.

I have been in some very heavy winds with Whiskers II and I felt very safe. A good timely reef helps to support that comfort zone at times.

Regarding gybing. Stay with the Chicken Gybe. I don’t care what they call it or what other folks think of it as it is the safe thing to do. With practice, that maneuver can be done in an amount of time to almost equal to a conventional gybe. The Hudson River Gybe should be left to only the very best. Although I would be willing to learn it some day from and experienced mentor.

Just remember that a minor error with the conventional gybe or HR gybe can be very costly and dangerous.

I highly suggest that you try to find someone who owns a 30 or 33 that would be willing to take you sailing. If you want to come to Maryland, I’ll be glad to take you.

Cheers,

Butch

Butch Garren

Nonsuch 30 #196 “Whiskers II”

SIYC Slip 12

Solomons, MD

Again, well said Butch. The Nonsuch is an easy boat for old timers to sail, just takes a little experience to get the best out of it, like most things in life.

Alan Steward.
30 C 144 MagnifiCat
Loyalist Cove Marina
Lake Ontario

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Hi Butch,
So it seems. You all have been a very helpful group.
I kind of left old folks vague on purpose. We are 67 and 71 and quite fit to sail most medium sized sailboats - including the 44’ schooner we sailed last summer. But I’m not nearly as fit as I once was. A ten year battle with an almost intractable illness left me much weaker and with more physical issues than I had in my 50s. (I was an open water rower before June of 2011.) That has really helped me to imagine what it will be like to get older. Of course, we all age differently and I suspect someone who is 81 and thinking that being old is still in his future has probably both kept himself better than I and perhaps had better luck. (My illness was solely and completely a matter of bad luck, not bad living.) Others are getting out of sailing at my age (or younger) because it has become too physically demanding.
Since I want a boat that I can sail until I’m in my 80s, I have to think in those terms right now. So every boat I look at I try to ask, or at least picture, an 80+ year old me sailing it. Staying in the cockpit will be important. But even there, we need to have something to hold on to and we’d really like whatever stability we can get. That schooner I mentioned was a 44’ Nauticat. Extremely stable, gentle motion when other boats are being hammered. An extraordinarily comfortable sailboat. But it takes a lot more scrambling around to handle four sails plus spinnaker and fisherman in light winds and when I try to picture myself doing that at 80 I have my doubts if I could do it. Your boats look awfully easy to sail by comparison, even if they probably do have a much rougher ride. Easy sounds good to me and I know it will sound especially good to my wife, who was even more worried about the schooner than I was. (I used to crew on a 131’ schooner, so a 44’ didn’t seem all that daunting to me. But she is the smarter of us.)

I’m not terribly worried about heavy winds. I’m sure I’ll run into moderate ones that are uncomfortable, but modern weather forecasting combined with having a very flexible attitude should keep me out of anything heavy. Heavy swells/seas are another thing and are actually something that interests me. The winds here in southern CA seem pretty mild most of the year. (Right now waves are 3 to 5 feet on a 2’ swell with 8-10 second period - very mild.) But sometimes those waves can build for thousands of miles before they strike us and in the winter they tend to get larger. I’d stay home when they are really large. But this isn’t Maine and I’m not staying home all winter.

We haven’t totally ruled out a larger boat, but you all have given me the encouragement to take a look at the Nonsuch 33 that I heard about.

Thank you,

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what is the “hudson river gybe?” please discribe

Instead of doing a “Chicken” gybe, you steer further downwind until the wishbone comes over. There is a video available on the INA website. Try it in light air after you watch the video.

Joe Valinoti
S/V iL Gatto NS30U #221
Sea Harbour YC
Oriental, NC USA

Joe’s suggestion for watching the video is good one. I’ll add that the wishbone comes across the stern quickly, but once it reaches the other side it is completely depowered and totally docile. There is no slamming etc as the wind is flowing on both sides of it.

You then just head down wind again with the sail on the opposite side.

Jim Cosgrove
FATE 30U #343
Galesville, MD

Autopilot is like another crewman capable of steering the boat into the wind particularly when hoisting and dousing sail. The 33 needs a below deck actuator for the autopilot. The wheel drive is not rated for the weight of a 33. So, if the 33 you are looking at has an under-deck autopilot, that is a plus.

Ward Woodruff
N33 #8 Margery
Niantic Bay, CT

We recently sold our 33 with concerns regarding getting an ancient ,well fed, body back on the boat should there be an unintended swim.
Violates boating rule #1: water out, people in

Bob Hindle

Brian
Might I suggest a Nonsuch 30 would fulfil your needs and would be easier to obtain, sail and less cost. I have owned one for twenty years and have sail in the open north Pacific with no worries. My first Nonsuch 30 was purchased, and the owner sailed it to and from Vancouver Island to Glacier Bay Alaska single handedI has more than enough room for a couple and indeed I take 3 or 4 for prolonged sails with no problem. One real advantage is the large size of the cockpit, which can seat five without any difficulty.

There a two methods of Gybing, the safest being a Hudson River gybe.

I currently have a 324 model, one of the newest in the fleet, having been built in 1996. I may be putting it up for sale so stay in touch.

Ray Dykstra
Timaru Nui. Nonsuch 324
Brentwood Bay, BC

Yes, it won’t slam if you do it correctly/
Joe Valinoti
S/V iL Gatto NS30U #221
Sea Harbour YC
Oriental, NC USA

Joe Valinoti,

I have access to INA-Nonsuch website but I don’t see the video of the Hudson River Jibe, perhaps you can attach a link of some sort.

Brian
Boat-less in New England

Here ya’ go, Brian https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pFIxxHZYqNk

Joe Valinoti
S/V iL Gatto NS30U #221
Sea Harbour YC
Oriental, NC USA

Beautiful Joe,
I loved the sheet flip and the declaration that
‘If you can’t take a tack you can’t make a jibe
Brian

One thing about it, Brian, it’s best not to have things like outboards on your stern rail. If you do, you’re better off with a “chicken gybe”.

Joe Valinoti
S/V iL Gatto NS30U #221
Sea Harbour YC
Oriental, NC USA

What is considered and old timer here ?