Reefing

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I think I’ve finally got everything set back up after the move except for the tack reefing lines.

Both tack reefing lines go up the port side of the boat and through blocks on the port side of the ring around the mast near the deck. That’s where I stand right now. From there I’m assuming they will go up the luff, through their respective tack grommets, back down the other side, and get tied off somewhere. The “somewhere” is what I’m asking about.

A bit farther up the mast is the ring where the tack of the sail is attached. To either side of that eye is a horizontal eye made by bending and welding on pieces of SS rod.
I can imagine that the reefing lines are probably tied to one or both of those eyes. But that’s where I get stuck. Do I run both lines up the port side of the sail, through the tack grommets, down the starboard side of the sail? If so, do I tie both lines to the same welded eye? They will never both be tight at the same time, but it seems like it will put a big blob of knots right there in one place.

Or have I got something else wrong?

I couldn’t figure out how to copy a photo and paste it into an email that I’d already started writing here on my phone. So I’ll send another email with a photo or two.

Thanks!
– Brian Godfrey

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Sorry, I forgot my proper signature.

Brian Godfrey
NS 33 #77
San Diego

[user43]

Arrgghh – I just spent 20 minutes posting a reply to Brian and IT DIDN"T GO THROUGH !!!

Start again, Ern -

Brian - I am attaching 2 photos. The first one shows my tack reef (red/white) going thru a ring on a strap that is built into my reef cringle. The line ties, goues up then down, thru the block then back to me ALL ON THE SAME SIDE (Port, in this case). Likely, your sail doesn’t have a ringed-strap running through the cringle. In that case, the line is tied normally on one side, goes UP and thru the cringle i.e. thru the sail and down the OTHER side to a block and back to you. Either way, you get a 2:1 mwchanical advantage when you yank on the reef line.

The 2nd photo shows the 1st CLEW reef. Mine ties to the boom on the starboard side, goes thru the cringle and to a cheek block on the OTHER side of the boom (port) and up the boom, etc. and back to me, finally. Same deal - a 2:1 advantage.

Ernie A. in Toronto

(attachments)

[user43]

Almost forgot, I agree with Ron Weber - that “ring” looks like a garbage old grommet. Ditch it.

Ernie A. in Toronto

[system]

Thank you, Ernie,

I don’t want to think about how many times I lost my original posting and had to start over while trying to add the photos.

It appears that you have both first reef lines on one side of the boat and both second reef lines on the other. My boat is rigged with both 1st and 2nd tack lines to port and leading to the winch right next to the halyard winch. The two clew reefing lines go to the starboard side of the cabintop, next to the choker and topping lift lines. I think this makes logical sense, plus it’s how the boat came to me.

So it looks like I’ll need to tie both tack lines to the eye on the starboard side.

Brian in sunny (today, finally!) San Diego.

[user43]

Hi Brian (Godfrey) -

I think that both of my photos were taken during different seasons. Both of my 1st reef lines are on port and both of my 2nd reef lines are on starboard. (At least, they are now !!) Think about this - you have TWO places to tie TACK reef lines to, right ?? On either side of that honkin’ big hole that your sail is attached to. So, the 1st reef attaches on one side, goes thru and comes down the other side. And the 2nd reef ties to the OTHER side, goes thru the SECOND reef cringle (higher up) and comes down the other side (which is, yes, the side that the 1st reef tied to. TWO or more reef lines are never tied to the same point.

And, there is truly no “rule”. We are ttalking about a grand total of 4 lines - 2 for the tack and 2 for the clew positions. They can be on whatever side works best for each sailor, size of boat, etc.

Ernie A. in Toronto

PS - The photo would be WAY uglier if, indeed, the mast was cracked !!

[system]

Brian,

I’m glad to hear the cracking is paint only, I suspected that but wasn’t positive. Since Ernie’s picture of his mast shows a clean, unpainted assembly, comparing the two makes it easier to see the wedge that both masts have, along which the paint is cracking in your case.

Like Ernie, I don’t think there’s a single right answer to the question of which mast collar ring to use for which reef tack line. It really comes down to two questions because the critical factor is the routing of the lines through the blocks and back to the cockpit. Do you want both tack lines to come back to the same side, or one to each side? And, for each of the two lines, which side do you want them to come back to?

I prefer my two forward (aka tack) reef lines to come back to the same side as my halyard winch. This is because I like to take them in at the same time I’m easing the halyard when I reef. On my N26U, which has the halyard winch on port, that means routing both lines to the port side. I route both aft (clew) reef lines to starboard, so that I can tweak them and my topping lift together.

I know other people like to keep both their first reef lines together on one side, and both their second reef lines together on the other.

It depends on your preferences on this, and on where your winches / linestoppers are located.

Meanwhile, I wanted to ask a question that came to me while I was looking at your mast base picture very zoomed in. There appears to be a crack or indentation on your mast collar. Is there actually one there, and if so, how deep? I don’t want to be a cause excessive worry, but if there is something there, that could grow into a problem.

– Bob
Me Gusta
Nonsuch 26U #233

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Brian: I have to assume you don’t have a manual for your boat?? If not, check the INA website for one. If a 33 is not listed, use the one for a 30 as it will be quite similar. I like the reef lines on the same side as this stops having to go back and forth across the cockpit. As an aside, most email clients have a means to insert a signature after an email. Mine just takes two clicks and it’s done. It’s a whole lot easier for responders then searching through a bunch of posts to see if someone is nearby.
Joe Valinoti
S/V iL Gatto NS30U #221
Sea Harbour YC
Oriental, NC USA

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I do have a manual and it has at least three illustrations of the rigging, but they are 8.5x11 copies of drawings and the lines are just too busy in that area for me to figure them out.

Yes, having both tack reefing lines next to the halyard winch is the most logical and is how the boat is setup. And to tie one to one side and the other to the other side, as Ernie suggested, is also the most logical. But I don’t think that’s how the boat was setup before they decommissioned it. Here’s why:
They left all four lines in place on the deck and at the winches. They just removed the blocks from the mast collar, lowered the boom, and lifted out the mast. The boom was shipped resting on the cabintop, on top of the sail which was still in its cover, and on top of a bunch of carpet-scrap pads. So in theory, I should just re-attach the four blocks to the mast collar tie on the tack reefing lines, and voila! done.
So the two clew reefing blocks do not swivel and use forged d type shackles. One of those shackles was from the red/white line and was left attached to the mast ring. The other shackle was left attached to the block on the green/white line. I assumed (hoped!) that the shackle on the ring had been left in its correct location. And since the green/white line goes in parallel and to starboard of the red/white one, I assumed (hoped!) that it should attach to the open spot in the mast right which was to the starboard of the one with the red/white line. Otherwise, to move it to the port side of the mast ring would mean an ugly crossing of the two lines and I really doubt that it was setup like that originally.
Then it was time to move on to the tack lines. Both of their blocks were also removed from the mast ring and again, one of the shackles was left on the ring. The blocks, themselves, were left on the end of the lines with a knot tied to keep the block from falling off and being lost - just as you see them in the photo. I put the block for the red/white tack reefing line back onto the shackle in the position that it occupied on the mast ring. That left only one remaining hole in the mast ring. Since placing the block for the green/white line in that location would keep those two in parallel, not crossing each other, that seemed like the logical thing to do. And that leaves both of the tack reefing lines on the port side of the mast.
So if they both go up the port side of the sail, through their respective reefing grommet, and back down the starboard side of the sail, what do I tie them off to? That is my question.
It’s OK if nobody has a definitive answer. The guy who took the boat apart knows Nonsuches and knows this boat pretty well. I can call him on Monday and ask him what to do. His business is closed on weekends and I’m back home now, so nothing will happen until then, anyway.

The email clients that I use on my phone and on my PC are very different, but neither of them has an add-a-signature button. They both allow me to make a pre-defined signature which they will attach to every email. (Except that the one on my phone doesn’t attach it to replies.) No offense, but I do not wish to have my Nonsuch signature attached to every email that I send out. I have considered using a different email address for this list, but I haven’t gone to the hassle to set it up yet. Sorry if I forget to do it manually until then. I do try, but I have been sending emails since 1982 and using pre-defined signatures (formerly called .sigs or .signatures) since about 1987, and it is really hard to change such long established habits.
I probably won’t be adding the boat name until we are well settled in. It has been Popcorn for all of its life and you all know it that way and have been following my exodus under that name. But my wife wants to name it Vela, after the constellation. Agreeing with her is the politically expedient thing to do, so Vela it will be. It was never documented before, but being so close to Mexico we thought it would be a good idea. Once the papers come through we’ll need to change the name and home port on the transom and then I’ll probably start signing with that name. Until then, it is just #77.

[system]

Thanks, Bob,
I see that potential crack that you pointed out. I’m home now and can’t check it, but you bet I will the next time I go downtown. If it is cracked, what can I do about it? I assume these mast collars are not available OTC, am I wrong? And it looks cast. I suppose I could have it welded.

[Val_Aries]

Hi Brian, Mike Quill may be able to help you with a new one if need be.

[

Welcome To Mike Quill Yacht Rigging Ltd. mqyr.com

](https://www.mqyr.com/)

Val

[system]

Thank you. I will contact him. (Though I thought someone said he had retired?)

[Val_Aries]

Not yet I don’t think. His website is still up!

[system]

Brian,

Check it first, no point in worrying 'til then if not necessary. Having spent many a night myself worrying about “could-be” problems that weren’t, I don’t want to get you too stirred up over what may not be an issue.

So take the following not as “here’s what to do,” but as, “if it does turn out to a problem, you’ve got alternatives.”

If it comes out to be needed, you’d have to ask someone with specific expertise about whether welding is viable.

If welding isn’t viable, I’d also want to ask a shop if there was some other way to reinforce the clamping aspect of the collar that could still be cheaper than full replacement. E.g., a band serving as a collar around the collar.

If something has to be done, and welding isn’t viable, and a reinforcement can’t be added, and Mike Quill can’t help, and no one else comes through with other ideas, then fabrication might be Plan D.

I know you’re an INA member. I’m not sure you know that one of the things on the INA web site under the MEMBERS tab is “NONSUCH SHOP DRAWINGS”.

INA doesn’t have shop drawings for the Nonsuch 33, but I took a quick look at the N22, N26, and N30 collections. All three include a drawing entitled, “Spar Fairlead Collar”. The most recent of these is the one titled, “N30 Spar Fairlead Collar 19840705 Rev 19870212.pdf”. The drawings appear virtually the same except for scaling to the diameter of the mast for their specific model. Thus, I’m pretty sure that you could follow those drawings to get one built for your boat. It might just entail giving a metal shop the Nonsuch 30 drawing and the diameter for your N33 mast (which could be taken off the spar fairlead collar that you’ve got).

So, if it’s a problem at all, it’s not without solutions.

– Bob
Me Gusta
Nonsuch 26U #233

On Saturday, March 25, 2023 at 7:10:41 PM UTC-7 Val NS26C #75, Ottawa, ON wrote:

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Brian,

It took more searching than it should’ve, but I managed to find the link to an earlier post by Rick Merullo ten days ago (https://groups.google.com/g/ina-nonsuch-discussion-group/c/7ecp2QpaVYM/m/JocQM9HSAwAJ).

Apparently he had his N30 mast collar break and had it replaced by Mike Quill. The post says this was, “after sailing 8 hours double reefed, winds 20-25K on a beam reach…[after] the tens years of sailing.”

If it turns out that you’ve got a problem, he might have some insights to offer you.

The picture he posted seems to suggest that even after the break, the collar would still have been sufficiently attached to permit getting the sail down and the boat under control.

– Bob
Me Gusta
Nonsuch 26U #233

[user43]

Brian -

I’ll assume that the mast is stepped but the boom has not gone up, yet.

If I were you, the very first thing I’d do is to try and contact Mike Quill either by email or by phone. I believe that he is still in business, though barely. He’s a good guy and will be TOTALLY helpful. Simply establish contact and explain that you MAY need a new collar or maybe not. This singular action may really save your bacon if you have a real problem with the collar.

Next – (Remembering that the arch enemy of every Nonsuch is needless friction … )

I would remove every solitary shackle, block and other removable hardware from the boom and, especially, from the mast collar. Take ALL of this salt, bug and crud-encrusted hardware, figure out a way to label each item (or photograph them so you’ll remember, roughly, where they were) and dump them all into a 5 gallon pail of warm water with a bit of dish detergent in it. These items will love you. Dollars to donuts, they are dirty big-time even if it doesn’t show. They will work twice as well. Leave them soak for a little while and rinse them well. Dump them out and dry them well.

Spend the BIG bucks on one can of McLube Sailcoat. (It is SO much cheaper in the USA and this pisses me off !!!)

Spray the innards of every block that came with boat with McLube. Yes, there are many good alternatives used to lubricate blocks but, for now, use nice, dry lubricant McLube. While you are it, clean every sail slide on your sail with a rag and some alcohol. Then, as you bend on that sail onto the sail track, spray each slide with McLube. Now, your sail (your BIG HEAVY sail) will slide up and, especially, drop way faster and easier.

Next –

FOUR blocks on the mast collar take care of all of your reefing needs – just four blocks. Two of the blocks take care of your two tack reef points, the other two deal with the clew reef points. You can attach any of these four blocks wherever you want because you can change all of this whenever you want – it just takes a few minutes. Most of the time, you don’t even have to move a block – just pull the line out from the cockpit (not from the sail) and run it through a different block. The ONLY things that are trickier to change are the two clew reef lines on the boom but it can be done also. I say all this because you are a Nonsuch newbie and you WILL change all of these block positions umpteen times. Lines might crossover, might not work as you wish, etc., etc. I’ve had my boat for 11 years – I still mess around with the odd line and pass it thru a different block, whatever. If it looks like I am suggesting that the block positions that the previous owner used were “wrong”, well, to be blunt, I kinda think they were. So, removing the whole schmozzola, cleaning it all and re-installing things where, just maybe, they should go is a fine option.

You might find that one or two reefing lines cross each other and contribute (oh no !!) FRICTION. Change ‘em !! Set the whole thing up so it makes some sort of sense and, on a calm day, raise the sail at your dock and practice putting in your 1^st reefs. Then, try your 2nd reefs. What a lot of us have learned (and, maybe, you two) is to put reefs in at the dock, go sailing and, if you don’t need them, shake them out on the water.

Just remember –

Tack reef points – Tie each on opposite sides at the mast and pass them through the reef cringles. Then, each line comes down on the opposite side of where it tied. It goes thru that NICE CLEAN block and back to you in the cockpit.

Clew reef points – Tie each on opposite sides of the boom. Pass each one through the appropriate cringle and down to the cheekblock, on the opposite side of the boom. Then, each line travels forward, on each side of the boom until a block at the forward end of the boom. Each line drops down and goes thru one of the other two NICE CLEAN blocks and back to you in the cockpit.

Result – Four reefing lines terminate where you are in the cockpit. Two lines on port and two lines on starboard. NO more than one line running through “one passageway” or tied to the same tie-off point.

Finally, think about reducing the friction with every single line on the boat. Is the block dirty? Is the line stiff and salty and dirty? Do lines pass through a needless amount of “organizers” and could they, in fact, just go straight back to you without creating a problem?

My 2 cents, skipper. Have fun !!!

Ernie A. in Toronto

[system]

Hi Bob,
Thanks for noticing this. I checked on it today and yes, it is cracked. Another new adventure. At least it looks like I should be able to replace it with the mast up.
I’ll contact Mike Quill tomorrow (Monday) and see if he has a replacement. Though I’m uncomfortable about using the same design that keeps failing in the same place.

[system]

Brian,

My impression is that failures are pretty rare. Mike Quill or others with more expertise can speak to whether the design can be improved upon.

– Bob
Me Gusta
Nonsuch 26U #233

[user43]

Brian -

I share Bob’s impression. These beefy castings are not known to fail. If you were to replace this casting with a new one (not that I’m suggesting that), it would last for 40 years+ unless the boat went through a couple of real hurricanes.

Ernie A. in Toronto

[system]

Brian;

99% sure these parts are green-sand cast. (at least on my 26 they are). Sand-cast aluminum should be weldable, by someone who does TIG.

If you have to go down this route, you have to take the casting off (mast off, etc) get the casting to the welder, wait, get it back, and cross fingers all is (should be!) good.

I’ve only tried TIG once, on Aluminum and that was 20+ years ago when I went through a few courses on stick welding for pressure vessels at a community college, so enough knowledge to be dangerous; way short of knowledge to provide a solution to you.

One of the fellows on this list had his mast welded, to get rid of stress cracks around where the mast base sits. There is/was a file on this procedure somewhere? Maybe someone knows where I remember this from.

One could also get a bracket SS welded, but with mainsheet block there, eyes, etc, I’d be worried about it not coming out really round, and thus stressing parts of the (soft) aluminum mast.

Sorry for your issues; hope it gets resolved with as little effort as possible.

JohnS, NS26C 046 Bath, ON.