Stern Ladder Safety

[Allen_Perrins]

While removing gear from my NS 22 (3 years ago) during a 40 mph wind and 40 degree temperature, I slipped off the finger dock and into the drink. No one else was in the neighborhood at the time. Although I had boats all around me none had an available ladder for me to use. Most were locked in up position and with crossed stern lines. As I felt all of my warm clothes filling up with cold water and my inability to pull myself on deck I sort of got a tad concerned. On the other side of my dock was a large cabin cruiser with a swim platform. By now my hands were painfully cold and I was losing energy. I worked my way under the dock (low tide) and onto the swim platform of the cabin cruiser. As of this point my hands were useless and I had to climb on the swim platform and then the finger dock using my elbows. Of course, I lived. Before I get a lot of lectures and there is a lot more to this story to be told over a few beers, I evaluated all of the wrongs, especially mine. I encouraged the marina to install ladders at the end of the docks (there’s not enough, but it’s a start). I now know where every water exit point is on my dock and watch the changes as the seasons move forward. I know, I should wear some type of PFD while on the docks. I don’t and most of you don’t either.

Now, I own NS 30, #196. As with most Nonsuches without a swim platform but equipped with a center position stern ladder there is no reasonable way to access and use the ladder if one finds themselves in the drink. I decided to solve this and it took a couple of refreshment sessions and a friend to help. Using two stainless large cotter pins (gift from Ed Bahniuk NS 30, #503), some 80 pound stainless fishing leader line, some small stuff line, unused key fob and a fairlead the problem is solved. The pictures should show what I did. All one has to do when in the water is to pull the yellow key fob gently, the gates lift and the ladder falls. Watch your head though. I used the boy scout knot to secure the leader line. A touch of epoxy might be added for insurance. I am sure there is a better way but if this mailing can lead to an improvement to the idea I encourage the input

Cheers,

Butch Garren

Nonsuch 30 #196

Whiskers II

Solomons, MD

[system]

True,

But when in the water, they (the lines) are easy to maneuver (at least the way I have stern secured) to allow ladder to be fully down.

Still have to watch your head when it’s coming down.

Cheers,

Butch

Butch Garren

Nonsuch 30 #196

Whiskers II

Solomons, MD

[system]

I’ve been thinking about the issue of the ladder bopping heads by coming down too quickly once the latches are released, and am wondering…

Has anyone tried tying a bungee cord running from the stern rail to bottom step of the ladder (i.e., the highest point of the ladder in the upright, latched position)?

It seems to me that if the cord length was set so that it didn’t start to stretch until the ladder was perpendicular to the boat (i.e., about 1.4 times ladder length), that a bungee might slow the final descent but not be strong enough to stop it. I currently have a non-stretch line there anyway, because it lets me pull the ladder back up without having to lean over.

Unless someone reports that they’ve tried it and there’s a flaw in the reasoning, I’m going to try it and will report back.

I like to experiment and, unlike the other discussion about high-tech batteries, this is an experiment that is within my budget limitations. ;-}

– Bob
Solar Wind
Nonsuch 26C #143

[system]

In case anyone’s interested, I tried the experiment of using bungee cords to slow the ladder’s fall.

I had to do a bit of experimenting with shock cord lengths. Too long, and it still falls like a rock. Too short, and it doesn’t fall past halfway.

I settled for a length that slows the fall a bit. I think it improves the situation from “the ladder will knock you unconscious” to “the ladder will make you very uncomfortable”.

– Bob
Solar Wind
Nonsuch 26C #143

[system]

Bob, I have used my boat hook to lower and raise my ladder. For the amount of time we use it it works fine. Tom

[system]

Tom,

That makes a lot of sense in general.

However, the context of this particular thread is a two-part question concerning single-handers trying to get back into their boat after falling overboard:

(a) how to release a latched ladder while swimming below it;

and, (b) how to avoid getting hit by the ladder when it then comes down.

– Bob
Solar Wind
Nonsuch 26C #143

[system]

In case anyone’s interested, I think I have a working solution to both parts of the two-part question of: (a) how to release a latched ladder from the water after falling overboard; and, (b) how to avoid getting hit by the ladder when it then comes down.

The attached sketches show two different approaches to getting a handle dangling off to one side of the ladder, allowing the swimmer to be out of the way rather than directly underneath. When the handle’s pulled, the attached lines will release both latches at the same time. I’ve installed and tested the first on my boat. The other occurred to me afterwards.

Basically, both approaches essentially consist of taking Butch’s original idea and adding a few small blocks to redirect the lines away from the ladder.

Bungee cords on the ladder provide additional safety by slowing its fall.

– Bob
Solar Wind
Nonsuch 26C #143

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[system]

I’m really glad this subject has not died as it would behoove us to have a safe system that works. Bob’s efforts to create other ideas to improve those that are out there now is greatly appreciated. We all deserve a safe system.

The center fed lanyard pull (or handle) is reachable from along side the ladder drop zone when in the water. Bob’s thoughts encourage pulling from the pull/handle side (in his drawing). The key secret is to pull from the side of the ladder drop zone with either method. Both methods (better than none) are challenged by the person in the water (possibly struck with a little panic) and simply pulling the release lever without regard to the ladder falling on them. I doubt anyone wants to put a sign “Watch for falling ladders” on their stern. Bob’s method automatically suggests that one should consider ladder landing area. .

Some of us have thought that the release system is doable if we could control the dropping ladder. Since I’m not the brightest dude in town I feel it best to ask some questions to see if any one had some thoughts. I wished I would have been an engineer rather than an engraver. Damn!

Are there not some reel systems with automatic braking allowing for a slow release? I envision a small reel, of sorts, on the deck, coaming or stern with a cable/line to the top ladder rung (bottom, when dropped) activated by the release of the ladder. I picture the ladder going down at a reasonable speed controlled by the reel. Does this make any sense?

Does anyone want to come on over and have a few beers while we discuss this?

I wish for everyone, a great day. Be safe. Another solution:

Butch

Butch Garren

Nonsuch 30 #196

Whiskers II

Solomons, MD

[user39]

I like the bungee type solution but would not recommend the actual cords. The depend on a “rubber band” for the springiyness but the rubber deteriorates with exposure to the sun. A pneumatic spring may be a solution. I have one that may work on your boat.

EdB\

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[user1 (10464...@gmail.com)]

I have taped one of the ladder holders open and tied a slightly weighed line that hangs just above the water to the other ladder holder’s outboard end. If you are concerned about the ladder hitting a swimmers head on the way down (I am not) you could use a very light line (like whipping twine) that would hold it above head level, but break if the ladder is pulled by someone in the water.
Bob Dryer
Nonsuch 30C #173

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[user43]

To Butch and everyone else -

Thanks for being like a dog with a pant leg i.e. refusing to let go of this really important topic. My take is, firstly, to get the ladder to ABSOLUTELY fall down FAST when you need it (like when you are about to drown) and, then, work out the “soft ladder landing issue” to mitigate a concussion.

When I used to work in theatre production, we always used loose-pinned hinges to attach scenery together. We’d hinge several wall units (called FLATS) together so they’d fold or stand up, just like the proverbial Chinese screen. But … the pins in the hinges were simply large bent nails (as the hinges were fair-sized backflap hinges). Time to pack up ??? PULL the pins out - handle each flat separately… you get the idea.

One can buy loose-pin hinges or, just like i did, you can grind the pin heads off and ditch the pins..

I’ve attached a (crappy) photo of a loose-pin hinge holding my folding table on MOUSTACHES. It works like a hinge - the table swings up. When I want to remove the table, I pull the pin out (operative word coming up) SIDEWAYS.

So … applying it to this problem… find a way to attach the swung-up BOTTOM of the ladder to … ??? The stern rail ?? I think that one hinge is sufficient to hold the ladder as it sits, folded. OK - so now, it’s “hinged” to the stern rail. A thin line is attached to the pin, running sideways, to a little block and straight down, at the corner of the transom, to a handle at the water (just like Bob Neches’ diagram). Pull the handle and the pin slides out. Wham !!

Down comes that ladder. Or … you tie the end of the line to a rung of the ladder THEN, allowing for enough slack, tie the line to the pin and run the line through the block and down to a handle.. You pull - the pin slides out and you yank the ladder down. Like Bob Dryer, I care little about compromising the simplicity and “idiot-proofness” of this system with all kinds of “ladder injury mitigation technology”.

I just want the sodden thing DOWN in an instant, bleeding head or not. (Well … hopefully… not THAT bloody.)

Foreseeable problems with this idea - the pin must ALWAYS be able to SMOOTHLY slide out when pulled but not come out just from the weight of a handle or the movement of a rocking boat.. On stage, we didn’t just use bent nails - we’d use a flexible 8" long wire and we could bend a pull handle into the end. Furthermore, to make the pin harder to pull, we’d bend the pin ever so slightly before working it into the two halves of the hinge, adding the amount of desired friction. Or, for real friction, we’d jam in two pins.

I bring up this “loose pin hinge” concept because I’ve never seen these fail and nothing could be simpler. I am afraid of the word “latch”. Latches contain all manner of springs, sliding bolts, etc. and are usually crummy and cheaply built. I don’t trust them and they are needlessly complex.

I realize that this concept is just that, a concept, not a fully hatched idea. But, I think some version of it could work.

Cheers,

Ernie A. in Toronto

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[BARRY_STOTT]

This whole discussion of jury-rigging the swim ladder to descend slowly and painlessly somewhat baffles me.

Why not just add the excellent near-to-water Nonsuch swim platform with its more easily reachable horizontal swim ladder? This has another excellent advantage of allowing one to easily board the dinghy without having to parachute down from the deck high above!

Barry Stott
Chadds Ford, PA

[user124]

Barry,

I second your thoughts.
I added a swim platform and deck shower this year. They are great. After swimming in salt water a couple of times a day on our 2 week cruise, we were able to shower and dry off on the swim platform. We entered the cockpit salt free and dry after swimming.

The built-in ladder is simple to deploy or stow from the water and the ladder will not hit you on the head.

Ward Woodruff
N33 #8 Margery
Niantic Bay, CT

[system]

Interesting! Some of us do not have a need or desire for a swim platform making the expense quite high when possibly there’s another alternative.

Also, I think it’s pretty neat that a group, such as ours, can take a subject of concern and address it looking for a better idea. Sort of what friends do.

There’s no doubt that a swim platform solves the problem. I would bet, however, that no one bought one because of the possibility of falling in the water. Could be an exception or two, but …………..

I’m not baffled, but ……………

Cheers,

Butch

Butch Garren

Nonsuch 30 #196

Whiskers II

Solomons, MD

[system]

My problems with the swim platform solution are (in priority order):

1. It takes the fun out of coming up with a solution.
2. It costs a lot of money to buy and install.
3. My marina charges $15 * LOA per month, which would mean an added annual cost of something like $180-$360.
4. It takes the fun out of coming up with a solution.
   Admittedly, #1 and #4 are arguably reasons to do it, because it does address all of the issues other than cost. On the other hand, I can buy a lot of other safety gear for the money saved on installation and marina fees.

I’m interested in better solutions for slowing the ladder because, as Ed Bahniuk pointed out, bungee cords are nowhere near a set-it-and-forget-it solution. I’d like to hear more about the pneumatic tube suggestion. I need help understanding how it would work. All the springs I’ve seen essentially push in extension and resist in compression. Since a ladder swings through a 180-degree arc, I’m having trouble envisioning how a spring would be connected to the boat and the ladder in a way that would provide resistance throughout its arc.

I’m wondering if there’s some way to adapt the line friction concept behind boom brakes and snubbing winches.

I’m also wondering if there’s something to Butch’s idea about a speed-controlled take-up reel. A tape measure allows the tape to be pulled out but provides some resistance, and rolls it back in when the line’s slackened. So, it’s not like no one knows how to do this. The question is, where could we find a marine-grade device of the right strength?

– Bob
Solar Wind
Nonsuch 26C #143

– Bob
Solar Wind
Nonsuch 26C #143

[system]

I’m with Butch on this one – $5.00 vs how many hundreds??

Joe Valinoti
S/V IL Gatto NS30U #221
Sea Harbour YC
Oriental, NC USA

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[system]

We’ve all bought into quality and top notch workmanship when we bought our Nonsuches. Why would you then consider attaching anything to your vessel that doesn’t match her quality?

Work-arounds, when it comes to life safety, is a non-starter in my books. Everyone can agree that the swim platform does the job of getting you out of the water when there is no one around to help. Surprisingly a number of you feel the $1,595 is a too high a price to pay for your life.

But what are the chances? If you think the odds are in your favour then you can save a lot of money buying substandard life vests and electronics too.

…but nobody would be that silly.

Ron

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[system]

I guess I could spend $1,600 for the platform that I don’t want or need but then I’d have to sell my boat slip and buy a bigger one. No thanks, I’ll go with the $5 .00.

Joe Valinoti
S/V IL Gatto NS30U #221
Sea Harbour YC
Oriental, NC USA

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[system]

Hi Ron,

There is no one in this organization that I can think of that thinks $1595 is too high a price to pay for safety. I don’t know how this subject got off the path. All that is being sought is an improvement to the ladder release rig to prevent the ladder from possibly getting somewhat hit in the head.

Swim platforms are great, they’re wonderful but some of us aren’t getting one and we care just as much about safety as you do and have not put price limitation on safety. By the way, high quality stainless steel cotter pins, stainless 80 pound test leader line, west marine line, and a free key fob did not challenge the high quality of our beautiful Nonsuches. I only use the best materials.

Think I’m going to get a beer.

Have a good day.

Cheers,

Butch

Butch Garren

Nonsuch 30 #196

Whiskers II

Solomons, MD

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