My engine has bit the big one and needs to come out. The person I am talking to about this project ir proposing to do the job in the water using the boats rigging for a crane.
Has anyone done this? Did it go ok? It makes me nervous.
Also the replacement will be a Yanmar 3YM 30. How did that go?
Michael Riley
Felicity, 30C #234
Seattle
Michael,
As far as rigging the old motor out of and the new motor into the boat, I believe he can make that work. He is probably a clever experienced guy.Who owns the new motor while the work is being done?
Do you have a certificate of insurance from your mechanic? Make sure his insurance will pay if he drops the motor.
What percentage have you paid in advance?
Hi Michael -
It may be WAY too late for this idea but have you thought of electric propulsion ?? If you are one of the thousands of sailors who cannot sail due to COVID, then you’ve got time on your hands.
Or, do you already own the (excellent) Yanmar powerplant ?? Ward’s comments are very worthwhile - I’d heed his advice. I’d talk through this process, step by step, carefully with your mechanic. I would do a lot of visualising (and I don’t mean imagining the engine dropping into into the drink). Has this mechanic done this before ??
I must tell you, honestly - I’d be nervous, too. I, once, pulled my small Yanmar single engine out of my old Carter 30 sloop using our club’s mast crane (capacity 1000 lbs.). The boat was solidly tied to the wall at the crane. Still, that adventure made me nervous.
Hey, maybe I’m just a nervous type ??!! These days, who can blame me ?
Stay healthy, eh !!
Ernie A. in Toronto
Addendum - I have helped replace my old boats Yanmar and that is the method we used. The 36’ boat had a stayed 3/4 fractional rig so the main halyard was pretty stout and the motor was a 2 cylinder Yanmar 20 that weighed around 200 lbs. The Westerbeke weighs about 430 lbs so it is a lot more. The new one is just under 300 so that is better.
I don’t know if it contributed but the following year I did a bunch of mast work and one of the issues was a crack in the masthead crane but the mast was 25 years old by then.
When we have to lie something heavy like that we put a 2x4 or 4x4 across the boom, support the tail end of the boom, and us a block and tackle from the 2x4 cross piece.
Tim in STL
White O’morn NS26U
Harbor Point Yacht Club
West Alton, MO
Michael,
I am nervous as well.
I assume when you mean in the water, you are talking about tied up to the dock and not on a mooring buoy? Because you are changing the engine to a different type you will likely need to do work on the engine bed and a number of other items. The project will take a number of days. Once the engine is out you will need shore power to keep the batteries charged in case you have leaks at the prop shaft and the bilge pump needs to cycle frequently.
At one time I had to do some transmission work on my 26. We pulled the motor forward and lifted the transmission out of the cabin by laying timbers across the top of the companion way. We had spacers under the timbers so that the weight was on the cabin top and not the hatch rails. The engine was a Westerbke 13 so weighed less and we only lifted the transmission out. You did not mention which Westerbke engine. Is it the 27. The brochure states the 27 weighs 434 lbs. Here is a link to the brochure which happens to have a picture of 3 Nonsuch 30s in it https://www.westerbeke.com/advanced%20specs/w27.pdf
Not sure how the companion way would handle a 434 pound engine. That work was done with the boat tied up at the dock but it was completed in one day. The boat has a PPS dripless seal on the prop shaft. The shaft had to be clamped to keep pressure on the seal so that we did not flood the boat. We still had water come in a few times during the process. It was at the point we discovered the switch on the automatic bilge pump was working intermittently. The switch was built into the motor so now I have a bigger electric bilge pump.
A couple of things to think about: The mast is very bendy. There is a chance that as you try to hoist the engine the mast will bend backwards and the boom will gradually pull down until it touches the pushpit rail. As an experiment you might try hardening the topping lift and then try pulling down on the end of the boom to see how far everything moves. The second point it that the boom was not designed nor built to take loads downward forces in the middle. I assume the mechanic intends to sling a line to both arms of the boom over the companion way and harden the topping lift to support the end of the boom. That will create a beam that is about 25 to 30 feet long with a 434 pound load in the middle. It will be very costly if you discover the weight has bent the boom. You could try contacting Klacko to see if they think that the boom will handle the load.
When I changed the engine, I put the boat on the hard and we used a crane to pull out the old engine and install the new one. The method seemed to have less scope for things to go wrong. As it was the new engine was delivered two weeks late.
You might want to discuss some of those issue with the mechanic and see if he has successfully used that method on a Nonsuch.
I suggest caution should be your word for the project.
Mark Powers
La Reina 26C
Vancouver, B.C.
Michael -
I have great respect for the knowledge and experience of Mark Powers. Most of us in this association tend to contribute answers and suggestions that are about a paragraph or two, at most. Mark writes a book. And, it’s all fact. It’s based on smarts, a hell of lot of good research and sheer knowledge.
In this hellish time (where urgently required items or personnel might not be QUICKLY available to assist you in the midst of a major project like this), I would not undertake this task, especially using the boom as a hoist. I’d be leery enough about doing it, with a proper crane, when the boat was afloat. I would only change the engine out when the boat was safely on the hard and I’d use some type of powered crane or solid block and fall.
Remember, if it CAN go wrong … well, it just may. (Bet you thought I’d say “it will go wrong” - I won’t go that far.) IF it does go wrong, even slightly, you will, likely, be in BIG trouble. If it makes Mark nervous, I hope that it makes you sufficiently nervous to wait until things are in the right place/time to move forward.
Be safe (in every respect),
Ernie A. in Toronto
To add my little bit to this discussion:
This past winter/spring had our W13 replaced by a Beta 20 by a reputable boat yard.
One thing they found was that the coupling on the prop shaft had been not tight for quite a while, and as such was now a nice “shake fit” and both the bore on the coupler and the the prop shaft were worn.
Was thinking about getting the old prop shaft back to measure it and see exactly what the wear pattern was. Yard closed to visitors, almost 5 hours round trip, and working 9-5 still, so decided that I don’t need any 1"ss rod in my workshop. 1" 660 bronze would have been another story!
Anyway, having the boat in the water would have made changing the prop shaft a bit problematic, I’d expect.
John, NS26C 046, lying Bath, with shiny new prop shaft and engine, which I can’t get in to see.
One thing not mentioned is whether this is a “V” drive or not.
Joe Valinoti
S/V iL Gatto NS30U #221
Sea Harbour YC
Oriental, NC USA
Okay, my two bits worth:
I’ve been on the other side of this discussion many times and I have a lot of respect for GOOD mechanics, machinists and shipwrights (like me). If your man is a GOOD mechanic and he says he can do it, I’m betting he can and will do it easily without putting any gear in jeopardy. Experience in the field is far more valuable than the conjecture of friends.
I mean no disrespect to anyone here who has given advice. Please don’t take my comments that way.
Personally, it sounds doable to me but if I were doing it I would prefer a small crane if that was an option.
Paul M
NS30U #211, Sandpiper
Cowichan Bay B.C.
In 2018 the 31 year old westerbeake 27 on my #386 30U decided to die.I called Hansen Marine, a local westerbeake dealer. They informed me that there was no westerbeake replacement for this engine. With there input, I purchased a Nani 38. It was compatible with my VDrive, which was still functioning fine. I dont have the knowledge to replace and engine so I contracted with a boat yard in Marblehead MA to do the replacement. The boat was taking out of the water and five weeks later I had a new engine. Its been great engine and I have a more power. I went from 27 to 38 hp. The engine cost approximately 9,000$ and the install was the same.
I pulled my Westerbeke 27 into the cabin pretty much by myself. I had a mechanic who knocked the shaft loose but, then reneged on buying the engine. So I was left to get the engine into the main cabin by myself. It was easier than I thought it would be. A look at how I did it is on my blog: Removing a Westerbeke diesel engine
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Removing a Westerbeke diesel engineBefore beginning to remove the engine I will need to make room. The table needs to be removed and all the cushio… |
Mike
BIANKA
1986 30U
biankablog.blogspot.com
John
What did you do with the old W13?
Was it still in running condition?
Tom
Tom;
It’s going to a new member in the Nonsuch 26 group , who will likely find that he has engine issues whenever the boat yards are open in this COVID-19 era.
JohnS -NS26C 046, needing a good hull buffing, lying Bath ON.
Ernie,
you give me and my opinions far more credit than they are due. Many people on the forum know far more than I do. People like Joe Valinoti, Paul Miller, Thor Powell and Captain Mike from Bianca are just a few examples.
Joe,
You are correct at this point Mike has not told us the size of the engine or the type of transmission. I assumed a Westerbeke 27 with a Vdrive because they were the most common Westerbekes put in the 30s. I believe the sail drive modes used the Volvo engine.
Captain Mike, has confirmed that the companion way is strong enough to take the weight of a Westerbeke 27 with the transmission removed. We still don’t know about how the boom would handle the load. If the boom is not used, moving the engine from the cockpit to the dock could be a challenge. Tim has used his boom to lift heavy items but he has not indicated if the items were in the 400 lb range. When lifting the items Tim puts a 2x4 across the boom (I would like something strong to lift 400 lbs). He also supports the end of the boom presumably to keep the boom from sinking down to far. I don’t know what he does when he swings the boom over the side to place the items on the dock.
Captain MIke’s efforts show one of the potential problems with trying to do the work in the water. The prop zincs might prevent the shaft from moving far enough aft to clear the transmission.
Paul is right, with a good mechanic it is probably doable, but my question is why? I don’t think enough is gained to justify the risk and potential problems.
A friend with a custom 32 offshore boat pulled the engine from his boat at the dock. Our marina has a dock with a small crane that is used for lifting Cal 20s in and out of the water. He took the boat to the dock and lifter the old engine out. He then used a dinghy to take the boat back to her slip. When the new 20 hp Nanni arrived he wheeled it down the dock at high tide (at low tide the ramp would be too steep). Four of us then rigged the engine to the boom and hoisted the engine into the cockpit and down into the salon. His boom was much shorter than the boom on a Nonsuch and it was very stout. The Nanni weighs 233 lbs vs 434 lbs for the Westerbeke. I don’t remember if my friend ever gave a satisfactory explanation as to why he used the crane to take the old engine out but not to put the new engine in. I believe it was getting the old engine up the ramp was going to be too much work. In my friends case he was doing the job himself and spread the work over several years (he kept finding other things to do). So land storage fees would have been prohibitive.
So, Paul is right, with a smart and knowledgeable mechanic the project is probably doable at the dock but I still don’t think enough is save or gained in comparison to the potential problems and risks to justify that approach.
Will the boom handle the weight? Assuming it does, will it allow you to lift the engine high enough to clear the cockpit and place it on the dock or will the mast bend so much that you can’t lift the engine over the coaming? When the boom is centred you can support the end as Tim suggested but when you want to swing the engine to the dock there will be no place to support the boom end as it swing from the boat to the dock. Will the prop zincs prevent you from moving the shaft back far enough? How do you plan to get the old engine up the docks? Is someone going to get hurt moving the 400+ pounds of iron around. To truly get the benefit of that new engine you will want to pull the boat and give the hull a nice smooth clean bottom. Will the new engine require a different prop or adjustment to the pro settings that have to be done while the boat is out? If so you may as well do it all at once.
My thoughts on the subject.
Mark Powers
La Reina 26C
Vancouver, B.C.
Beware of tightening down the boom using the mainsheet. I had the topping lift fail doing just that while the sail was off the boat. The wheel and binnacle took the brunt of the impact. The TL wire was sound, but the bottom clamp gave way making the safety line useless.
John Newell
Mascouche 26C 1
Toronto
Hi Michael,
I am curious. Do you mind giving me an idea of the cost to remove old engine and install the Yanmar? I also have a 30 classic.
Jerome Bertuglia
Per Diem, 30C # 269
Okay, It is a 30 Classic, Westerbeke 27, no v drive. I have already determined we need to cut the engine bed down 1 inch and add about 1/4 inch to the inside of each.
My plan is to rig a block from the outhaul connection with a line that puts the block over the companion way and aligns the main halyard with the lift. That eliminates any load on the boom at the middle.
Should be workable I think.
Michael,
I made a sketch of what you are talking about over the last weekend. The weakest link is the mast. I’m sure the mast can take a decent, basically static, load in an aft down direction. Sailing in a seaway probably puts larger repetitive loads on the mast. Understand, I am not a structural engineer.I would remove the transmission, exhaust manifold, starter and alternator to reduce weight before lifting the engine out of the cabin.
This would suggest that it is a W27 with a saildrive. In which case I can see why you may need to cut the bed down by an inch.
There were other N30s that repowered a saildrive mentioned on this list but I think they went to a Beta not Yanmar. You can search using “sail drive”.
The mast and halyard probably would be strong enough to lift the engine because while sailing they are likely put through worse than 400lbs. What you must do is brace the boom and your block and probably the engine side to side until you get it clear of the companion way. This will be a problem with the Nonsuch bendy mast that isn’t so bad with a stayed mast. Wait for a calm day.
My marina uses a big forklift. It looks easy when they do it.
Tom
26C #28
Penetang