Backing NS30 out of slip.

I have a fixed 3 blade prop and saildrive.
Sometimes I look like a pro when I leave the dock and sometimes not.

Prop walk makes it almost impossible to pull out and make the 90° turn in reverse (although I could do it when I didn’t know better??? dumb luck).

What I have to do is make a 90° turn to port while going astern.

Making a 5 point turn in a tight space makes all the other boaters nervous (and I have lost a few pounds).

Does anyone have a fool proof system for making this simple maneuver?

Thanks.

Mike Jennings.
NS005 Salt Coats.
Port Moody BC.

Mike:

Normally, prop walk kicks your stern to port, so it should be helping you make that 90 degree turn. Also, looping a spring line off the aft port cleat over the rear port piling can help pull you around in tight quarters.

It baffles me why you continue to use a fixed three-bladed prop. Not only does this cause the worst prop walk, but it also cuts at least a knot off your forward speed under sail, which is a killer when the wind is light!

I keep sending this out, but here, again, is the link to the best article comparing performance and efficiency for all the major brands of props. If you take the time to read it, you’ll see that, overall, the 3-blade Flexofold folding prop ranks Numero Uno (and has very little prop walk):

https://www.yachtingmonthly.com/gear/folding-and-feathering-propeller-test-29807

Helpfully yours,

Barry Stott
Chadds Ford, PA
ebstott@aol.com

I’ve recently been in a new slip where I have to back it in. I hear your pain. One thing I’ve noticed is that once I have backward momentum, I put the gear in neutral. It steers much better without the prop walk as an issue.

Bob Gehrman
NS30U #396 Quickbeam
Baltimore, Maryland

Yes Barry I have been following the prop debate. Salt Coats is new to me so I am learning a great deal from these posts. Next time she comes out of the water she will go back in with a new prop. A Fold o Flex is the current favourite.

Thanks Bob, I figured that disengaging the drive would help so last week I gave that a try and it worked like magic. Yesterday, full of confidence, I expected the same result, problem solved. No, I was back to the 5 point turn. Don’t know what I did different. Wondered if someone else had figured it out and had a system.

Next I will try pulling out with the rudder in neutral until I dissconnect the drive and then put the helm down. If that does’t have the desired effect the last resort is to put the helm down and back out under power and disconnect drive once I have sufficient momentum. It will still pull away from the dock with the prop walk.

If that doesnt work I guess we will have to go to Barry’s suggestion of using a spring line.

What could possible go wrong???

Thanks again.

Mike.

I regularly use lines to ‘warp’ out of my slip depending on the wind direction. Keep a sharp knife close by.

Bob Gehrman
NS30U #396 Quickbeam
Baltimore, Maryland

Hi Mike,

Although having sailed most of my life I never owned a boat with a diesel engine until I bought my NS 30 3 years ago. The first lesson I learned was that it was difficult getting on and off the boat when it was bow in. I realize other boats use floating docks or other set ups where this is not an issue. But it was for me. I finally concluded that I was still young (76 at the time) enough to learn how to back the baby in. I went around to other neighboring boat owners and sought advice. Each and all said they just sort of bounced them in. That was not the direction I wanted to go. I used You Tube and learned a lot including the standing turn. In my case I need to enter my fairway, implement the standing turn and slip into my slip which is to my starboard when going down my fairway. I could always get 3 or 4 feet in. I had no good steerage after that as I would lose all momentum or the prop walk take me places I did not want to go. So I just man handled it from that point. If you do not know how to do the standing turn, I encourage you to learn it as it provides an opportunity for you and your boat to really get to know each other. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QQzA-LZD8qQ, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PoGMAEjiHmU. These are two videos that you might find very informative.

I still was not satisfied so I would get up early and practice, practice, and practice. I quickly learned that the boat will not do a damn thing in reverse until I had some speed. The reason I had no control in the slip while backing in was that I had no speed. Now, prior to entering fairway I put the boat in reverse and drive her until I obtain steerage. I stand on the other side of the wheel, facing the stern of the boat and drive her in. The boat will steer differently when in gear or in neutral and you will find in a short period that using both positions (in reverse or neutral) will be very helpful. For me, I had to get used to handling the shift and throttle from forward of the wheel. Also since it takes speed to control the boat, one has to learn how to stop the boat as well when entering the slip. Just a matter of getting used to it. I am still learning it but I am comfortable that I am now in control and not the prop.

In your case I sense that the problem is that you do not have the ability to get speed up allowing you control. I highly recommend backing it in.

There has been a lot of discussion of late about props. I know that most everybody knows more about props than I ever will. I probably would not change props to help with your issue. I don’t race so I don’t care if another will give me speed. My two bladed fixed prop is good enough for me, came with the boat and I will learn to live with it. Previously mentioned was the using of lines on pilings to assist in turning. That’s good knowledge have all the time. In one of the videos I’ve highlighted illustrates those maneuvers very well.

Mike I know your frustrations, but hang in there. Good luck and practice, practice and practice.

Cheers,

Butch

Butch Garren

Nonsuch 30, #196

Whiskers II,

Solomons, MD

Mike:

Conditions vary from day-to-day. A tidal cross-current could be sometime flowing, or just a breeze from port or starboard to accelerate or counter drift.
Try initially backing out with neutral rudder to gain hull momentum, then reducing or idling power and turning the helm in the direction you want the stern to go, which should steer the stern in that direction.

Prop wash from sudden applications, forward or aft, with the rudder cocked over, can cause stern movement contrary to what you expect. You first mentioned backing out of a slip, but this last email talks of pulling the stern away from a dock sitting to starboard, in which case a spring line will go to a forward starboard piling from the aft starboard cleat.

It’s helpful to go out into a spacious mooring field or even near a buoy and practice these backing and filling maneuvers in different winds and currents to get more familiar with what to expect in the way of steerage!

Barry Stott
Chadds Ford, PA
ebstott@aol.com

If you sail alone much and want to have confidence in difficult situations consider punching a hole through the bow. It’s the best modification I have done by far.

Paul M
NS30U #211, Sandpiper
Cowichan Bay,B.C.

(attachments)



Mike -

I’m lucky. I sail an N22 with a nice, new 9.9 hp outboard and I don’t seem to have much, if any, prop walk (tho I used to deal with it on my Carter 30 with a 6 hp Yanmar thumper and a big, fat 2-blade fixed prop … Arrgghhhh).

If you don’t want to spend much money (save for a cup of diesel fuel), do as Barry and Butch suggest and go off, in different wind, current and sea states and practice. Try ANY screwball idea you can think of. You will get WAY better at this “fine art”. I chuckle when I visualize Butch driving his boat “backwards”. Actually, he is doing this incorrectly - he should stand in front of the wheel, granted, but face forward, steering the boat with his arms behind his back. That way, he can see what he is leaving.

However, do NOT take Paul Miller’s advice and make huge holes in your boat. FLY (COVID, be damned) Paul Miller out to YOU and make HIM put those holes in your boat. This man does some of the the most breathtaking marine installations that I have ever seen. And, he is spot on with his advice.

I have driven very heavy (30 ton in a windy Dutch canal) and unwieldy single-screw fixed prop boats equipped with bow thrusters, while on the boat alone, and I swear by them.Granted, an excellent ($$$$$) folding prop is a great thing. Personally, though,on a 30’ heavy boat, a bow thruster is absolutely priceless. They are fantastic and make you grin when you dock or depart, not sweat.

WELL worth the investment.

Stay well.

Ernie A. in Toronto

Mike,

As sailors we don’t tend to think like power boaters, but power boat rules apply to engine and steering usage when it comes to docking. In addition, we also have to anticipate what the wind direction and speed will do, and set up accordingly.

I’m sure you can find better explanations than mine on how to maneuver a single screw inboard with a rudder in close quarters, but in brief…

rule #1 - unless you have a long runway to gain enough speed in reverse for the rudder to work, plan on having little to no steerage backing up, except for prop walk, which can be used to your advantage if planned out.

rule #2 - prop wash over the rudder is very effective at turning your boat, even at zero boat speed.

Your 90 degree turn will never happen in reverse considering these. The right method, is back straight out, and with a short (2-3 seconds) burst of throttle, with the rudder hard over, the boat will rotate without moving forward much. Use reverse to stop any forward motion, followed by a short burst in forward, and repeat as necessary. Leave the rudder hard over the entire time, take your time shifting, and you can spin the boat to point any direction you need.

Find some open water on a relatively calm day to practice, and you will have less stress in the harbor.

Tim

I have very little useful to inject into this conversation other than the following.

C.A.T. will only turn within it’s own length when going to port so I always leave the slip with that it mind and a bailout plan that takes advantage of that.

Wind and current in that order are by far the greatest determinants of what will happen when I slip the lines but going a good burst of reverse is needed to get everything flowing properly.

Strange that Salt Coats pulls to starboard when going astern.
Marina is very placid, wind is from the bow and usually light. Current is minimal.
Thanks for all your tips. Will keep practicing.
All the best,
Mike Jennings.
NS005 Salt Coats.
Port Moody. BC.

Sorry Mike - what I meant was I try to have a bailout plan that involves going forward to port since at the point of no return I’m usually inches from the stern of boats on the other side of the fairway. It’s not uncommon to come out with a plan to turn and end up backing all the way down the fairway if the steerage is there and the wind/current cooperates.

Strange that Salt Coats pulls to starboard when going astern.
Marina is very placid, wind is from the bow and usually light. Current is minimal.
Thanks for all your tips. Will keep practicing.
All the best,
Mike Jennings.
NS005 Salt Coats.
Port Moody. BC.

Thanks for the clarification. It would be easier to make the starboard turn.
I have considered backing down and that might be the solution. Better than fouling another boat.
Mike.

I assume then, Jim, that all the 30Cs turn that way as opposed to the 30Us that turn to starboard. I’ve driven at least 3 or 4 30Us , one 33 and a 36. My recollection is that I could make them turn in their own length by going to starboard. Must be the difference between the saildrive and the “V” drive.

Joe Valinoti
S/V iL Gatto NS30U #221
Sea Harbour YC
Oriental, NC USA

Mike,
I don’t have a magic bullet for you.

If I remember correctly Salt Coats has a Volvo with a sail drive. Most Westerbeke, Universal and Yanmar engines take a right hand prop. My experience is limited but I believe most small Volvos take a left hand prop. This means that Nonsuch equipped with the former engines will prop walk to port in reverse and Volvo equipped Nonsuches will prop walk to starboard. No boat speed and more power combine to create more prop walk in both forward and reverse. In forward you will get some water flow over the rudder and therefore some steerage even if the boat is standing still. In reverse there is no water flow over the rudder until the boat starts moving, therefore no assist from the rudder until you are under way. Sail drives generally don’t produce much if any prop walk. Nonsuches have high bows, a large mast right forward and a fairly large stack of sail near the bow. The result is that wind from the side will push the bow around, more so in reverse than in forward. To carry out a standing turn as described by other commentators Salt Coats will need to be turned to port as opposed to starboard. You would turn the rudder to port (leave it alone for the rest of the maneuver) and give a good burst of throttle. This should start the stern moving to starboard and the bow to port. Before the boat gains any way slip into neutral and then forward and give a good burst of throttle. The wash over the rudder should continue to push the stern to starboard and the bow to port. Slip into neutral, before you gain any way and then reverse and another burst of throttle. Repeat the process and the boat should turn in place with no forward or backward motion. As noted above the saildrive will not produce much prop walk so the technique will not be as effective as it is on a boat with an angled shaft drive. If there is a cross wind it is unlikely that the maneuver will work to allow you to turn the bow into and through the wind.

La Reina has a right hand prop so prop walks to port in reverse. She has a downward angled and offset to starboard prop shaft so she produces a fair amount of prop walk in reverse. On a couple of occasions I have gone down dead end slipways in marinas that I was not familiar with. With no cross wind or current I was able to turn her 180 degrees in a slipway that was 30 feet wide. If you ever get the chance watch the boat hands docking boats at a charter company. They force the boats around with huge amounts of throttle but no way on.

When backing up in a cross wind, the wind pushes the bow down. With use of the rudder and throttle I can generally keep La Reina straight but will often be moving side ways while doing so. This makes getting into the right slip difficult

I see a number of options for you:
(1) The Paul Miller installed bow thruster - good news is Paul is only a B.C. Ferry ride away, no expensive flights. His hourly rate may be prohibitive:

(2) The Barry Stott spring line approach. I find it much easier to use spring lines if I have a bumper wheel on the corner of the dock and an extra pair of hands on board. Depending on how wide your slip is you may need a long sprig to allow you to back out far enough so that you don’t hit your neighbour when making your turn:
(3) Learn to back into the slip, al la Bob Gehrman, if you can solve the cross wind issues; Based on what you have said I assume your exit is to starboard of your slip when you are in the slip. If this is correct when you come back to the slip, motor past the and then shift into reverse and use the prop walk and the boat’s natural tendency to turn to starboard in reverse to assist in entering the slip.

(4) Sweet talk you marina manager into giving you a slip on the other side of the fairway so that the turn out of the slip is aided by the boats natural turning direction; or
(5) Give up fighting the physics. You want to leave the slip and go to starboard but the bow won’t come around. Don’t fight it. Let the stern come around to starboard and back down the slipway until you reach an area where you have enough room and speed to allow you to turn around.

Here is an article from Sailing Magazine that discusses this subject:
https://www.sailmagazine.com/cruising/walking-the-prop

Hope something here is of assistance.

Joe, I think the difference is left vs right handed props not sail drive vs shaft drive.

Mark Powers
La Reina 26C
Vancouver, B.C.

Very well said, Mark!!

Joe Valinoti
S/V iL Gatto NS30U #221
Sea Harbour YC
Oriental, NC USA

Thanks Mark, Lots to think about.
I am looking out for Mike of Beyond. He has to make the same manoeuvre and I believe he has the same configuration.
One thing I am sure of, I need a place to practice. I even have a hard time backing down on the anchor.
One thing I am not sure of is the prop. It may not be the original.

Thanks again.
Mike Jennings.
NS005 Salt Coats.
Port Moody BC

Replying to this in order to bring it back to the top of the discussion list in case of interest, since new owner Roman Sivers asked about maneuvering in reverse.

This thread from was the most recent last discussion of the topic I could find.

My impression is that the general consensus is that the boats don’t back well until they’ve gotten up enough speed for the rudder to bite. Gunning the engine in reverse will create major prop walk. Which side it pulls the boat’s stern depends on which model you have and/or whether you’ve got saildrive vs. prop shaft. Dealing with it involves giving small bursts of reverse power on the throttle, or alternating the transmission between neutral and reverse. Both help with getting the boat started moving backwards more smoothly so that the rudder can bite before prop walk kicks in.

Because our masts and sails are toward the front of the boat, there’s a lot of windage that makes the bow especially prone to falling off to windward when backing in a crosswind. That’s a particular thing to look out for. The only suggestions that I’m aware of for controlling the boat in reverse under those conditions involve running a spring or warp line to the dock. This requires crew; it’s very hard to do that and helm the boat singlehanded.

It’s also been pointed out that some of these same considerations apply if you need to turn the boat sharply in either direction when coming in. In making sharp turns, in addition to using the effects of prop walk in forward and reverse to help the turn, you can also get a lot of extra help making that sharp turn by combining the effects of gunning in forward and reverse with sharp turns of the rudder. I recall seeing a discussion of how to rotate the boat 360 degrees in either direction while staying in place. I know it works because I went out afterwards and tried it. However, I couldn’t find it again with a quick search.

Anyone want to add/correct/clarify advice on maneuvering in reverse?

– Bob
Solar Wind
Nonsuch 26C #143

Bow falling off to leeward.
Dick Lane
NS26c Swoose
Port Townsend.