Hi All,
I’d like to thank everyone that contributed to the conversation about the addressing Soave’s damaged Mast Fairlead Collar. The depth of knowledge in this group is incredible.
I’ve decided to replace the collar. I was tempted to attempt repair or move to a deck mounted fairlead setup, but for a variety of factors including my limited understanding of metallurgy and naval architecture, I’ve decided to stick with the known and proven solution.
I’ve still got lots to learn about Nonsuch boats and will continue try new things that complement Soave’s design such as dyneema, composting head, power management, maybe even electric propulsion.
When I get the new collar, I will share pictures of the removal of the damaged collar and installation of the new one.
Thanks again for sharing ideas and sympathy.
I’ve rerouted lines so I can sail till the replacement arrives, by rejiggering the 2nd reef tack line. We’re mostly day sailing these days an it’s unlikely we’ll go out in conditions that might require a second reef.
Thanks,
Rob
s/v SOAVE
NS33 #009
Cedar Point YC
Westport, CT
Hi All,
Just a quick update on Soave’s Fairlead Collar. The new collar and bands have arrived. Many thanks to Mike Quill for his guidance and quick response.
I am planning to start the install next week and have begin documenting with a Google Album ( HERE ).
You can check in from time-2-time over the next few weeks to see my progress. Also feel free to post comments/questions in the album or in our various forums.
Wish me luck…
Rob
s/v SOAVE
NS33 #009
Cedar Point YC
Westport, CT
Please find out the torque values for bringing the two collars together. Either from Mike or somebody on the web. I put a new collar on using 5200 and thought i used the correct torque values. Wrong - the collar has rotated counter clockwise 1” with the halyard as the culprit. Bob Horne. 1989 N26C, #249, Encore. Pocasser, MA.
Thanks for the tip Robert. I’ll tighten per Mike’s instructions.
As I understand it, the 5200 is supposed to resist the rotational force of the collar. Did you remove the collar after it rotated to determine why the 5200 failed ?
Once 5200 cures, it’s usually very reliable… maybe you had a bad batch ?
Rob
s/v SOAVE
NS33 #009
Cedar Point YC
Westport, CT
The guidance I got from Mike is : " Let the glue do it’s work. You don’t have over tighten the clamps. Most guys break the flanges by over tightening the bolts to stop it from rotating under pressure form the main halyard. "
Mike didn’t specify a specific torque setting. But he suggested a allen wrench and a open-ended box wrench or socket wrench are the tools to use. My guess would be 10-12 ft lbs… maybe 15… pretty light. They are self locking.
I take that to mean the following :
Measure the gap between the bracket faces of the old collar before removing it, maybe make a reference shim to use as a starting point for the new one. ( not to leave in place )
Remove old collar.
Clean and degrease surfaces to be glued.
Get everything aligned the way I want it to end up.
Make some pencil marks to make it easy and quick to align once the glue is on the ears.
Add glue to ears of the new collar and have a partner hold the two halves up to the mast per marks.
Insert screws and hand tighten them evenly all the way around.
Use a wrench to tighten to remove all play in the interface between collar and mast, but not so tight that the adhesive is squeezed out.
Let it cure. This may take a day or two depending on temperature/humidity.
Return after cured and tighten against the cured 5200. At this point it may only take only a smidge. ( like an 1/8 of a turn or less )
Check in a week or so after it’s been through a couple expansion/contraction cycles. Confirm bolts are all still snug.
The 5200 has a tensile strength of 700 psi. The ears each have about 4 sq in surface area. Getting a good glue joint is critical.
The whole mechanical system in that area is pretty complicated and dominated by upward and aft forces applied by the turning blocks, I’m not sure how to calculate the rotational force on the collar.
I’ll be sure and take lots of photos and will let you know the torque I end up using.
Rob
s/v SOAVE
NS33 #009
Cedar Point YC
Westport, CT
When I first owned my 33, the halyard turning block failed and needed replacement.
Upon attempting to remove the 5 bolts holding the block in place, I found all stainless steel bolts frozen in the aluminum casting. This necessitated removing the collar from the mast to work on extraction of the bolts.
There was sheet rubber (neoprene?) as an interface between the collar and aluminum mast.
Once I successfully replace the halyard turning block, I reinstalled the collar with new neoprene sheet as the interface between the collar and mast.
Under the load of the halyard the collar rotated on the mast. My temporary solution was to run a lasing from the turning block forward to the Sampson post. That was effective but not elegant. The final solution was to install thicker, 3/32” (my best recollection but maybe 1/8”) neoprene.
It seems to me that gluing the collar to the mast with 5200 adhesive sealant may cause future issues when one needs to remove the collar.
I’m happy I shared my plans, and that we can brainstorm solutions. Always good to have a plan for future maintenance.
Two thoughts come to mind about about the challenge of releasing the 5200 for future repair.
There is a product reviewed by Practical Sailor ( HERE ) called Debond Marine Formula that is effective at softening 5200 enough to work it loose. I don’t know how deeply it can penetrate a joint that I’d be creating between Soave’s mast and collar. ( about 2" oval )
I have read that 5200 softens between 140º F and 190ºF I think most Aluminum alloys would be OK under 250ºF. So heat may be an option.
Does anyone have experience with 5200 and aluminum ?
I’ll circle back with Mike Quill also since he’s probably had to work with this exact scenario before. ( the 5200 came from his install instructions ).
Thanks,
Rob
s/v SOAVE
NS33 #009
Cedar Point YC
Westport, CT
The failure may have been caused by the paint on the mast. Shear strength is what you are relying on when you put the 5200 on the fairlead collar ears to keep it from rotating. 5200 has 390psi shear strength on aluminum, meaning that one square inch of the glue placed between two pieces of aluminum it will resist 390 pounds of shear (sliding) force. Some substrates offer considerably less. The 5200 data sheet doesn’t spec shear strength for any paint, but I think a mast freshly painted with two part paints should offer similar shear strength to FRP and that would be about 360psi. So using 5200 between the aluminum fairlead collar and a well painted mast should give you 360psi shear strength. But poor quality, improperly applied, or just plain old paint might offer considerably less.
You’ll put more than 1 sq in of 5200 on each ear - or it will squeeze out to more than that, anyway. So unless you over harden the halyard by a lot, it should hold extremely well on good mast paint. If you over tighten with that big powerful electric winch then something bad is going to happen. In my experience (the PO apparently did just that) having the glue come loose is about the least bad thing you can hope for.