Deck Leak Nonsuch 26C

[Steve_O_Malley]

Hello
I am glad to have a distraction from this very difficult pandemic. I hope all of you tare healthy.
I recently purchased a 1985 Nonsuch 26 C an am new INA member. We are doing lots of neglected maintenance and are currently refinishing the teak interior and notice very slight drip marks in the ceiling headboard location directly below the deck teak handrails both port and starboard. Has anyone removed and re bedded these handrails. Also notice water staining a little above sole level to the right bottom panel (bulkhead) leftb of the Head door. It is not coming from above. Not sure if water not draining somewhere because she is on the hard. Any information on either of these issues would be gratefully appreciated . Thank you

Stephen O’Malley
Nonsuch 26 #172
Marblehead, MA

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Stephen;

I’ve bookmarked this page so that I can reference this this coming summer.

http://kiwi-nonsuch.blogspot.com/2014/

He might have some ideas for you.

Stanchions and pull/pushpit are being done by our boatyard; oh as well the 4 tabs holding the bulkheads in place.

I have new port lenses and screens, and will re-bed them and handrails, etc. as time permits.

Good luck, and tell us how it goes;

John A. Stewart
NS26C 046
Ottawa ON.

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Hi Steve,

Yes, I removed both handrails a few years ago. Not a difficult job but be careful that you use the same screws or ones of the same length at each position. Also, when replacing the handrails, make sure each screw is engaged it its proper handrail hole before fastening them at the same rate.

A final note, you might consider having covers made as well. After the effort required to do a proper refinishing or paying to have it done, covers will provide a few more years before the next refinishing job.

Good luck with both the handrails and the boat !

Best,

Jim Falcon
Ballybay N-30U # 357
Warren, RI

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I just refinished mine and just put them back on my NS30. I’m hoping that it fixes a leak I was chasing that was running down the interior shell.

As noted, the end on each rail uses a shorter screw then the rest. Most of the attachments on my rails were lacking any sealant. I rebedded each connection with Dolphinite in the screw hole and clear Lifeseal to bed the wood to the fiberglass.

It’s an overall easy job. Be prepared to purchase new plastic plugs for the holes for the inner shell. Mine we’re just brittle and disintegrated.

Good luck!

Bob Gehrman
NS30U #396 “Quickbeam”
Baltimore, Maryland

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Couple of ideas. Use new screws to reattach and if you can use robertson head screws vs phillips as they have less of a tendency to strip. A dab of wood glue and the tn end of a tooth pick in the handrail hole will help make a secure connection. You will need to bed the rails so put masking tape around where you do not want the bedding, that stuff sticks to everything . It is a two man job to put back, one on deck one below. Varnish the underside where it meets the deck. The little plastic plugs inside can be bought from any marine store for $100 each or Home Depot for 0.25 a pack of 4.

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Steve,

Congrats on your new boat, and thanks for your thoughts about folks’ health.

My $0.02 on the topic.

I recently replaced the handrails on my Nonsuch 26C with PlasTeak synthetic wood rails. So, I can’t contribute to advice on varnishing or reinstalling, which preceding posters covered pretty well.

A couple of points that I can add to their comments, however:

1. The installation I discovered was that wood screws went vertically through the deck into the handrails. Since the deck’s cored, if there was leakage through the screw holes, you may need to check if it damaged the core around the railings.

2. Although it’s not a big risk, you might also check to make sure that water migration hasn’t affected how well the screws are holding in the wood of the rail.

3. If your handrails have not previously been removed and reinstalled, there’s a strong possibility that the screws used were the same square-head drive you see elsewhere in the boat. Since this is hard to tell through the small holes in the cabin liner, be prepared to experiment over whether you need a Phillips-head, slotted, or square-head screwdriver to remove them.

4. I didn’t have this problem myself, because PlasTeak is much more flexible than real teak, but a friend who removed and reinstalled his teak railings told me that they’re very resistant to the bending required to get them back into the curve needed to align them with the holes in the deck. Be prepared to have several people helping above deck in addition to the person below. Also, be careful to mask off a wide area on the deck around each attachment point, because a lot of bedding material can accidentally get spread around in the course of wrestling the rail back into position.
   If there’s interest, I can start a separate thread about PlasTeak railing installation, but it seems off-topic if this thread is for people who prefer the original teak look (an equally reasonable preference, although not mine).

– Bob
Solar Wind
Nonsuch 26C #143

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Congrats on your new Nonsuch! I had a perpetual port side deck leak, as you described, on my 26C and finally fixed it by rebedding the handrail. After removing a few screws I excavated with a stiff ss wire to find some core damage (black balsa dust evident) so it was clear where the leak was. Having removed handrails on another boat (Niagara 35, same construction method) and refilled the holes with thickened epoxy, I found it tricky to drill new holes to align with originals. On the Nonsuch I removed all handrail screws, removed and refinished handrails. I did not refill and rebore the original holes. To seal the original screw holes I used butyl tape to wrap the screw tips coming through the deck, and made countersinks in the original holes on the deck to capture the butyl under compression. I also used 4200 liberally under all the mating surfaces of the handrail. After one season I am happy to report no leaks. BTW in past years I refinished the handrails in place. I never sand, only scrape heat-softened finish coat (Cetol in my case) with a ss blade, this removes no wood, only finish coat. For the leak by head door, I also had this. The elevated platform under the head itself drained water dripping from overhead down through the door and onto cabin floor. Source of my leak turned out to be the Paloma water heater which I have since decommissioned. Still thinking about how, and if, to replace water heater.

Greg Silver
Misty Cat 26C #121
St. Peter’s, Cape Breton

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Steve,

In addition to what has been said already, here are a few more things to consider.

Your boat is 35 years old so most of the caulking and sealant will be that age as well. In other words it will be failing. The areas you will have to work on include the deck top hand rails, the ports along the cabin top, the brackets that hold the head bulkheads in place and the deck joint. La Reina had leaks at all of those locations.

Most, if not all of these are two person jobs. For doing the deck joint it helps if the person inside the boat has long skinny arms with an extra elbow joint. They will need sockets and wrenches. A few of teh nuts will be almost impossible if not impossible to reach. Good communication is also helpful to make sure you are working on the same screw. You can go the quick route and have the person outside the boat hold the screw still while the person inside snugs up the nut or you can do it right and remove the screw clean off the old sealant and reseal it with new sealant of your choice. If you are doing the job it makes sense to replace the nut and lock washers with a nyloc nut. My experience suggests the nyloc nuts do not loosen as frequently as lock washers and nuts.

There are two brackets that help support the bulk heads on the head. They come up through the cabin top. They are an L or T shape, I can’t remember which. You have to take out the screws fastening them to the deck as well as the screws holding them to the bulkhead. You can then lift the brackets up clean and reseal.The rear one is easy to access. The screws on the bulkhead are covered by a small wooden block. Remove the block and you and access the bolts. The front one is not so easy since one end of the bolts are covered by the mirror in the head. To access them you need to remove the mirror which involves drilling out the wooden plugs in the trim along the bottom of the mirror and then carefully removing the mirror. When you put the mirror back be careful not to scratch the back because the silver coating comes off easily. That is the voice of experience talking. Lee Valley sells a nice set of tappered plug cutters that will allow you to cut new wooden plugs for the trim. A little glue or varnish on the back of the plugs before you install them will help hold them in place. There are two schools of thought regarding the alignment of the grain on the plugs. Wooden boat builders (Paul Miller) often align the plug grain so that it runs at 90 degrees to the trim grain. This helps hold the plug in place when the wood swells and contracts with changes in moisture. The other school aligns the grain of the plug with the grain of the trim so that the plugs become almost invisible. The varnish or glue is relied upon to hold the plug in place. Alignment is not as critical on the interior wood. A little Danish Oil or Rosewood oil wiped on the plugs will give a similar look to the satin varnish on the trim. Aligned with the grain or cross grain looks deliberate. A 45 degree angle looks like a mistake.

I had a bit of trouble understanding the location of the water stains near the cabin sole. If I have it right the stains are on the starboard side near the rear bulkhead of the head and outside of the head. It is possible but unlikely that the water is coming from the bracket at the top of the bulkhead and migrating down the inside of the bulkhead. It is more likely that you have a small leak at the based of the head or one of the hoses on the head. The water is then running along the platform the head is mounted on over to the bulkhead.

The opening ports are pretty much a two person job. One on the inside loosening the nuts while the other is on the outside holding the head of the screws. The port has to be closed to allow you to reach the nuts on the top so it is really difficult to do on your own. On La Reina it seemed that the screws were cut to different lengths. You might want to mark the screws in some fashion to make sure they go back in the same location they came out of. If the screw is too long you the acorn nut will keep you from snugging the screws up properly. Once the bolts are out you will need a thin scraper to slide under the ports to cut the sealant that was used so you can remove the ports. Clean up and then reseal with the sealant of your choice. If you are resealing the ports it might be a good time to repaint them. If you plan to do that make a few plywood covers you can screw over the port holes while you have the ports at home for painting. The plywood will keep the critters out. Some plastic tapped over the plywood will keep the rain out. While I was at it, I removed the rubber gaskets from the frames and turned them over. They are glued in place with silicone caulk. The original profile appears to have been round and they had been flattened over the years until we could not tighten the ports enough to keep the rain out.. Doing this stopped some small leak around the port. When you remove the port you will find a gap between the cabin sides and the cabin top liner. Some people put a filler or gasket in between when reinstalling the port. Others ignore the gap and some try to put a bead of caulking in it. Your choice. Hopefully someone else will be able to say which is the better option.

For the cabin top hand rails putting a chamfer on the holes in the cabin top will increase the amount of sealant and provide a better seal when you re-attach the rails.

Practical Sailor has done a number of reviews on caulking and sealants. Google “Practical Sailor Sealant Reviews” and you should be able to find them. The reviews should help you choose the right sealant adhesive. Some people swear by good quality butyl tape. It stays soft and does a good job of filling gaps. It is not an adhesive. If it is not good quality it has a habit of becoming runny in hot weather.

Have fun.

Mark Powers
La Reina 26C
Vancouver, B.C.

[Steve_O_Malley]

Thank you all for responding. So much collective knowledge experience and eager to share. I am very grateful to belong to this wonderful group. Steve O

[Steve_O_Malley]

Thank you all for responding. So much collective knowledge experience and eager to share. I am very grateful to belong to this wonderful group. Steve O

Steve O

Stephen P. O’Malley, Jr
McNulty & O’Malley
Attorneys At Law
85 Exchange Street, Suite 206
Lynn, MA 01901

Office 857-317-8080
Fax 339-883-3043

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A good source of the butyl tape that several posts mentioned is: https://shop.marinehowto.com/products/bed-it-tape

– Bob
Solar Wind
Nonsuch 26C #143

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Hi Steve,

Just wanted to follow up on a couple of things Mark said. If the caulking/sealant has never been addressed, just go ahead and replace it now. Get it over with. You’re going to do it sooner or later.

When I bought my boat I found that just about all deck items leaked except for stanchions. The biggest culprit were the two bulkhead deck plates.

I cleaned up the mess and used Butyl tape. By the way, my 30 is a little different and the mirror did not restrict access to the plates. In fact I saw no practical use for that mirror and yanked out of the boat. At this age the last thing I need to do is look at myself.

Since my rails, water deck plates, waste deck plate, fuel deck plate along with other misc. items leaked, much of the water drained on top of the headliner and onto the hull inside, into the head area, filled the shower pit, overflowing into the bulkhead. Thus one of the reasons for bulkhead damage and/or staining.

I also think because of this, I suspect that the bilge overflowed at some point ultimately adding to the staining of bulkhead wood. Part of the problem there was a defective deck drain hose dumping water inside the boat just before the exit hole. My cabin sole was damaged as well and I had to re-make.

Others have given great ideas about the problem. I suggest that you take care of the deck stuff. That will save you a lot of grief. I used butyl tape on everything and its worked so far and in hot weather mine has not run but it softens and you may need to do a little trimming after a bit.

Regarding the rails, I did it all by myself but think there was a little luck there. I did not have too much of an issue dealing with the bend in the rail. I started at one end and worked my way screw by screw to the other end. All screws needed a square screw driver. It is very difficult to see the screw heads but after a couple screw inserts you sort of get a feel for it. Best with two people but I was there and thought I would give it a whirl. The funny part of it is that I put all that time into putting 7 coats of Epifanes varnish on the rails. Said I would never re-finish them and had covers made. Now that I have covers that also look great, I never get to look at my beautiful varnish work. I also agree with Mark on putting a slight chamfer on the screw holes at the bottom of the rail.

As a test for potential leaks wait till rain is expected, dry out your bilge completely and turn off the bilge pump. Come back at a later time and see if you took in water. You should not have except for possibly the shaft packing. If the boat sunk, there’s a problem.

Hope this helps.

Butch

Butch Garren

Nonsuch 30, #196

Whiskers II,

Solomons, MD

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I know that there are many owners that love butyl tape as handrail sealers. I, on the other hand, had nothing but problems with it. I used it on the hand rails and forever after was re-tightening it and trimming the tape that had squeezed out. I prefer silicone sealer and trimming it once. Also, when working with the handrails, I used 4” screws to get everything in place and then installed the original screws to tighten them down. This gave me room to place sealer where needed.
Joe Valinoti
S/V IL Gatto NS30U #221
Sea Harbour YC
Oriental, NC USA

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I think butyl is great for fixtures connected with a bolt where you can increase pressure on the fixture. Parts held together with screws can not be tightened in the same way do not fair so well. I think an adhesive like 3M 4000uv is better. By the way 4000uv has better metal to plastic adhesion that 5200 or 4200. When you use something like 4000, save the last bit of tightening till the next day.

The butyl I use is grey and somewhat soft, like the stuff in our hull/deck joint.

[Val_Aries]

Joe, 4” screws… genius!! Thank you for sharing this!

Val

NS26C #75

NSC, Ottawa