All this talk about engine oil scares me.
My universal In my 1988 30 is pushing 35 years old.
What am I looking at cost wise to replace/rebuild?
I hope I did not just jinx myself.
Bill:
As we said in the electronics shop. “If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it”. That was not the case in 2007 when mt Westerbeke 27 went from a perfect operating engine to non starting in 6 hours. That’s when I went shopping for a replacement and decided in 2008 to make the leap to electric propulsion and never looked back. I did look at a diesel replacement back then and I think the cost was around $15K. Electric was cheaper, cleaner and less maintenance.
Mike
BIANKA
1986 30U
Long Island
I think the cost of electric and diesel are in the same ballpark. A lot depends on how much work you will do yourself and wha sort of shop rates you have where you live.
My conversion to electric is pretty recent, but I can stand behind the statement by Mike. Depending on how you design and configure your system it can be a viable option for most sailing styles. I wasn’t planning on the demise of my W10-2 but when it happened I looked at all my options and electric had the greatest appeal. The easiest part was selecting the drive system. I decided to go with Electric Yacht to save the research time involved in putting together a piece meal drive with controller and all that. The power bank is the most flexible component and can be structured specifically for your own cruising style. You can choose from battery only with shore power recharging and augment that with a portable generator or you can incorporate solar, wind, or even regeneration. You can employee all of the above or create a mix which is best suited to your needs. One option that I am not a fan of for private sailing vessels is a hybrid system which relies on a larger permanently mounted generator because you are pretty much faced with all the downsides of either diesel or gas standalone auxiliary power. That system is technically more efficient than diesel alone and is good for larger commercial vessels but I don’t feel it is a good answer for our leisure sailing.
Above all, when confronted by those skeptics who denigrate electric propulsion suggesting that it’s range limitation is it’s Achilles Heel, remind them that after all it is a SAILBOAT. I love the relief I get from not worrying every time I push the start button, and how she quietly glides through the water on my way out to the serenity of sailing.
Fair winds and “MORE POWER TO YOU”.
Ron Weber
N22 Magic Time
Punta Gorda Fl
William, I felt pretty dismal after realizing my W10-2 was toast but soon realized it was a blessing in disguise. These Nonsuches are really fine sailing vessels but they are old and like many of us sailors, major maintenance should be anticipated. It’s really nice that we now have a practical electric option available. Do a little research and you will discover that it is no longer the domain of electrical engineers or fanatical DIYers. It is something that most can achieve themselves, or cost equivalent to diesel replacement for those that choose to leave it to the professionals.
Ron Weber
N22 Magic Time
Punta Gorda Fl
Bill,
I’ve been guessing in the neighborhood of $20k for a new Beta diesel. A lot of $ but then the boat is food for another 40 years. I’m not interested in electric so I haven’t been following the cost of that.
I hope someone who has repowered with diesel on a 30 can chime in.
Jim Cosgrove
FATE 30U #343
Galesville, MD
Diesel engines are “stationary” engine application and should last with proper maintenance about half the number of hours of a highway application. Most highway engines last 12,000 - 15000 before rebuild and then can deliver another 8000 if you go that route so 6,000 is about right for our engines. Add a bit as they are not operated in any kind of dusty environment.
After 40 years and 2230 hours my W21 is in her prime. Florence is her name and she constantly amazes us with her reliability, in spite of that annoying water pump location.
However I watch Sailing Uma on U-tube and they run an Ocean Volt set up with
- 12 Battle Born batteries,
- 400 plus watts of solar,
- wind generator
- and a Honda generator.
For what Debbie and I use our boat for we’d need to be in this space as well. I priced this set up at Ocean Volt and it was eye watering. Plus Uma does 100% of their own work.
Like my electric car it is not a financial choice it’s based on other factors. But if you are weekend sailing, day sailing, marina hopping you can cut the battery bank down and get the cost close to a diesel. And I am not sure you’ll get 40 years out of the battery bank…
I’d be buying a Beta 20 , I can do most of the install and expect to be around $15 K and that would take Mariner’s Cat into her 80th year, about $350 / year
Thor,
Good cost analysis. But old is old and there are many peripherals that age and need eventual replacement. Tanks leak, hoses deteriorate, exhaust components fail, annual maintenance usually consists of oil change, coolant check/replace, belt check/replace etc.
I see my electric conversion not simply as an engine replacement but of an auxiliary power renewal, with many extra benefits. I did my own install, thanks to the availability of “kits” and it was thousands cheaper than even replacing the diesel engine itself and retaining all the other stuff to be replaced at a later date. I am not anti diesel, but there are many other benefits to consider for electric. LiFePo4 batteries generally have ratings of 4,000 to 5,000 lifetime charge cycles. At even once a week recharge from 20% that would be approximately 77 years of service. At the stated life expectancy of a diesel of 6000 hrs it would serve for 28 years before rebuild or replacement. Of course few of us will witness that longevity first hand, so for me battery life isn’t relevant. Besides by the time my batteries need replacing there will have been big advances in power storage technology like Hydrogen fuel cells, and diesel may well be obsolete and not easily located.
Electric is not for everyone, but is a viable option for many. It’s very much the same as the early days of electric cars – range anxiety is the problem. Most cars aren’t driven more than a small battery is good enough to handle, but people are more comfortable having a much bigger margin.
Initial costs are roughly the same. Maintenance costs and time are far lower for electric. There’s insufficient data on resale impact. Anecdotally, it appears to be break-even – some people wouldn’t buy an electric boat (see preceding paragraph), but on the other hand we have a report from a member who bought a Nonsuch sight unseen because it was electric.
The above is a quick summary. I wrote this up in an article that appeared in the INA Update an issue or two back in March, which can be found on the Nonsuch.org website under Members Tips and Projects. It includes a breakdown of my costs, which were higher than they had to be because of expenses that could have been avoided if I didn’t have back problems.
– Bob
Me Gusta
Nonsuch e26U #233
Ha, ha, thanks
For me it had nothing to do with politics or any of that foolishness. It was a simple reality and had my diesel not failed I would have not replaced it, but I’m glad I did.
Bob;
If I may inject a little note of humour in this discussion, as you may have heard, our current Canadian government wants car sales in 2035 to be 100% EV.
Now, I’m actually a bit anti-car, so lots of walking and some biking is what I do often. I’d rather have no car than a car. Anyway, looked on-line, found a table giving expected EV ranges, looked for a SUV to replicate what I sometimes do - drive to the boat, pick up, drop off, or work for a few hours and drive home. That’s 450km round trip. Now assuming a nice day (23c, what’s that, 74f??) so no AC nor heat, the nice SUV with the space and range works out to 7.8 times more $$ than what we paid for our well-kept Nonsuch.
Cost of Nonsuch electric propulsion conversion or a new diesel? Nothing compared to the cost to get to/from the boatyard! That floored me.
(I know, could move closer, or move the boat closer, but when we are sailing, we are on-board for 6-8 weeks at a time, except last summer when it was hot and no wind and forest fire smoke warnings to keep inside)
Anyway, hopefully someone on this list will find this interesting and/or mildly amusing.
JohnS NS26C 046 Bath ON
Bill,
How many hours does your Westerbeke 27 have.
My 1985 30U engine has 2800 hours and runs great
George Berntsen
Wave Dancer NS30 @283
Black Rock Harbor, CT
One of the uncertainties with an older diesel is the level of care that it’s had in the past.
Something that’s easier to be sure about for those who are long time owners, and thus know in their hearts whether they’ve been naughty or nice.
For boats that have had previous owners, it’s harder to know.
The very first time I chartered a boat, I ended up having to motor in 45 kts of wind for three hours. Did you know that the low (actually NO) oil alarm on a 1990’s charter catamaran is not loud enough to be heard over a 45 knot wind? Guess how I learned that.
A few years later, that boat probably got sold out of charter and went through a few owners afterwards. I’d be surprised if that engine achieved any longevity records.
Not saying that any particular Nonsuch has been ridden hard and put away wet, if you’ll forgive a mixed metaphor here.
Just saying that it you can have more confidence if you know the boat’s history, and can only really have total confidence if your knowledge of the boat’s history is because it’s been under your control for a long time.
– Bob
Me Gusta
Nonsuch e26U #233
The bad news is I don’t know. I will have to look at the survey when I purchased in 2000. A few years later my engine hours imbedded in my tach failed. I had to replace the tach and the engine hours was not included.
The engine runs fine in any event.
Thinking about it I probably run about a hundred hours a season.
Bill
The original owner of my 88 30U lived in Michigan as I remember. They lived on the boat in Fl. It had about 500 hours. I am going to look at the survey when I purchased in 2000 to be sure. It had a microwave, tv and telephone jack.
It seemed well cared for. Apparently, they could not sell it in Fl but for some reason they transported it to Annapolis where I found her.
Throughout the boat I kept finding aspirin sized tablets that were crumbling.
My best guess was that they were some kind of roach (sorry, palmetto bugs)
Poison!
Bill Evans
always get an oil analsis when purchasing a new engine. also the trans oil
Hi,
One of our boats in the Northwest, Home again, repowered last year with a Beta and a sail drive. Original was shaft drive.
The repowered was presented on youtube on the Skallywags channel.
The owner Mike is very capable and did a beautiful job and it is well presented.
This was mentioned on an earlier conversation.
Rob Powers
Respite 26C #50
Sidney BC
William,
It seems that 100 hours a season is on par with many local coastal cruisers including myself.
Ron Weber
N22 Magic Time
Punta Gorda Fl
My 1986 30U had about 1900 hours on it in 2007 when it died despite my annual oil and filter changes. I had owned it for 12 years at that point. What killed it was a leak in the head gasket that sprayed water onto a cylinder cracking it. After working on it myself ( learning a lot about diesel engines in the process) and then paying an incompetent mechanic who failed to find the problem. As the bills and parts started to approach $1000 I’d had enough and started to look into converting to electric propulsion and am very glad I did. Especially as I get older and the idea climbing down below to work on the iron pig gets harder.
Mike
BIANKA
1986 30U
Long Island