Electric conversion advice wanted

[system]

The original fuel tank needs to be replaced on my 1988 Nonsuch 33. I am currently running with a temporary tank.
I am wondering if this would be a good time to convert to an electric motor. I have the original Universal M-40 and am dealing with intermittent overheating issues, as well as random repairs.
Would an electric motor help or hurt resale value? Is anyone disappointed with their conversion to electric?
Bob Neches’ article was very informative and helpfuI. Thank you, Bob for all you do for the INA!

Barbara Melanson
Gimlet II NS33 #14
Groton Long Point, CT

[system]

Barbara,

Those who have indicated that they converted to electric have boats smaller than a 33. Our 33s are about 50% heavier than a 30. I’m thinking a 33 would be underpowered with the QT10 electric motor others have used. Your speed and range would be reduced.

Luther’s in Bristol, RI will make you a nice new aluminum tank for around $1000. You and your all woman crew could install the tank. I’d be willing to assist.

Installing a new diesel is another more complicated adventure. The M40 is rated at 32HP @ 2800 RPM. A Beta 35 is rated at 35 HP @ 2800 RPM. If your transmission, a Hurth HBW-150V (?) is in good condition, you could use that with a new diesel and use your existing propeller as well.
The M40 has mounts on 16” centers. The Beta 35 has mounts on 16-1/4” centers.
The Beta 35 would be a pretty straightforward installation in your boat.

Ward Woodruff
N33 #8 Margery
Niantic Bay, CT

[system]

Barb,

I can’t answer your question about the impact on resale value. My assumption/guess/hope/wish is that it won’t detract because someone should appreciate the new and reliable motor. However, in making the choice, I felt I was accepting that at a minimum it’ll make my boat take longer to sell. Since not everyone’s ready to made the switch, the choice narrows the pool of buyers from everyone down to only those ready to go electric.

I kind of keep an eye on the market even though I don’t have any intentions of buying or selling. I also don’t know how many have made the conversion, although my guess is at least a dozen of us. I don’t recall seeing anyone put up an electric Nonsuch for sale yet.

I agree with Ward that the QT 10.0 is too small for a N33. ElectricYacht claims that it’s suitable for boats up to12,000 lbs displacement. The N33 manual estimates yours at 15,350 lbs. However, that isn’t an obstacle if you decide to go that direction. ElectricYacht also sells a QT 15.0 that they rate for boats up to 18,000 lbs. displacement, and a QT 20.0 they rate for up to 22,000 lbs. (I’d be curious why their website advertises the same price for both: https://electricyacht.com/product-category/electric-motors/48-volt-systems/)

ElectricYacht is also no longer the only game in town. EPropulsion now sells a really slick-looking package (https://www.epropulsion.com/i-series-electric-inboard-motor/). If I was making the decision now vs. when I did a year ago, I’d definitely give them a look. That said, slick isn’t everything. NASA’s $20 Fisher space pen writes upside down in a vacuum in incredible heat and cold. But so does a #2 pencil.

Frankly, not having to worry about oil, impellers, cooling, etc. was the decider for me.

As for disappointments, I do suspect that my boat’s lost a bit of speed under sail since the conversion. I think this has to do with how the electric system tries to regenerate some energy under sail from the prop freewheeling. If I had the budget, I’d switch to a folding prop.

Other than that, my take is that the diesel vs. electric choice comes down to one’s tastes and personal needs. The conversion costs are about the same as a new diesel. If resale value is a big concern and you’re conservative, probably wait for more data. If you can afford it and are more comfortable with risk, then maybe go on to additional considerations before deciding.

If you don’t take your boat on long trips, don’t like engine maintenance, care strongly about quiet, and/or like being green, I’d say go for it. Frankly, I’m happy I went for electric just because of not having to worry about oil, impellers, cooling, etc.

If range is important to you, then probably stick with diesel. The technology isn’t there yet unless you already have a good diesel generator on the boat. If you don’t already have a generator, adding one really tips the balance on costs. And in that case, having the generator means you’d still be dealing with diesel smell and maintenance anyway, so those advantages get weakened.

Hope that’s helpful. It may be a hard decision, but you come out on the other end with a nice boat either way you go.

– Bob
Me Gusta
Nonsuch 26U #233

[system]

A little more information: after posting the long answer above, I thought I’d look at what’s on the used boat market with electric motors.

So I did the following query on Boat Trader, “sailboats with electric propulsion”: https://www.boattrader.com/boats/type-sail/fuel-electric/

When I ran it just now, it came back with 15 boats, ranging from an $8000 1970 Morgan 35’ with an electric outboard to a $447,500 1982 Custom Naumann & Dunbar 56’ Schooner with twin 90 HP electric saildrives installed in 2015.

Folks should look at the offerings and decide for themselves, but I’ve gotta say that looking at them made me feel better about resale value.

– Bob
Me Gusta
Nonsuch 26U #233

[user11]

When I converted my 30U to electric propulsion back in 2008 it was a leap of faith. Today the technology has been proven as more and more have made the conversion. I for one have never looked back. The nice thing about electric propulsion is it is easy to upgrade as the technology changes. For example I started out having a small Honda 2000 watt generator on board for charging at the mooring and range extending beyond the 20 miles range of the batteries. Since 2008 there has only been one day when I had to use the Honda generator for a 40 mile trip on entirely windless day.. I’ve since added a Champion 3400 watt generator that sits on deck behind the mast that allows me to use a power supply that allows for more amps for charging and electro sailing. It also has a remote on and off switch. Honda has also introduced a new generator that weighs 60 pounds which is 30 pounds lighter than the Champion and has almost the same power. Technology marches on. Once you put in a diesel engine well there you are. In addition to the generator upgrade I made. I recently made a change in my batteries I went from 500 pounds of AGM lead acid batteries to a 107 pound Lithium battery.

I also have gotten use to the smell of clean on board as I no longer carry any diesel, antifreeze and oil on board as there are no longer any leaks and drips to worry about. Likewise maintenance is now minimal and a quick easy clean procedure.

If you are interested you might want to contact Annapolis Hybrid Marine and speak with David. He came up to look at BIANKA when he was starting up and now has several types of various epropulsion systems for boats up to 60 feet. Tell him Mike on BIANKA sent you.

[system]

Thank you to everyone for your responses. Your comments are so helpful to me in making this big decision.
Ward, my old tank is currently at Luther’s. They are very nice and helpful. They found the drawing of your tank to use a reference. FYI, the current price is $1200.
I was originally planning to go ahead and order the new tank, but then Wednesday night my engine overheated on my way back to my slip. Tow Boat US was more than an hour away but fortunately Bill Wigglesworth on Bannaquit came by and kindly gave us a tow to a mooring. The next morning the engine ran with no problem. And on the weekend everything was fine. (Yes everyone, we checked the strainer.)
It is the unreliability of my 30 year old diesel that has me investigating repower options.
Mike, thank you for your long term perspective. I remember Bianka so quietly arriving at the 2008 Rendezvous in Newport, RI. (Mike set all his used diesel parts for sale out on the dock at the Newport Yachting Center. Jim Avery was thrilled at the bargains he got.)
Bob’s assessment is helpful as well.
I welcome any additional comments.
I will keep everyone posted regarding my decision.

Barbara Melanson
Gimlet II Nonsuch 33 #14
Groton Long Point, CT

[system]

Cooling issue first.

Age of the motor is not an issue, engine hours is what matters. Properly maintained 6000 hours is a good life. Get an oil test done. Blackstone Labs. That will answer the how good or bad is the engine.

https://www.blackstone-labs.com/tests/tests-price-list/

When was the last time the coolant was changed and the heat exchanger cleaned? Cleaning the heat exchanger means removing it and reinstalling with new hoses. coolant hoses rarely go back on leak free. Once done get a loaner rad tester to check for leaks, Auto Zone and the like loan them out. It replaces the rad cap and you pump it up to 14 psi and wait an hour. Coolant get some from the local Caterpillar dealer.

Are you getting good water flow out the exhaust? Check the raw water hoses for blockage.

As for engines. Beta hands down.

Electric motors.
Full disclosure I have an electric car.

Range anxiety is the issue with all electric mobility, be a car an out board or a sailboat motor . Oil changes, impellers are replaced by the need to have a big recharging system and a large battery bank.

In this day and age you need lithium batteries. You can use AGM’s but it will increase your range anxiety to a three gin and tonic level.

On many boats that’s 800 Watts of solar plus a wind generator plus a prop that will re generate power efficiently when sailing. Check out Sailing UMA where they can pretty much go anywhere on their Eboat.

https://www.youtube.com/@SailingUma/search?query=motor

https://www.victronenergy.com/blog/2020/03/26/sailing-uma-off-grid-energy-usage/

The issue as I see it is on a Nonsuch putting up all the solar needed to be truly independent is an issue. Boat with sails that do not cover all of the cockpit are an easier conversion. I can get 400 watts on the dodger and bimini but 1/3 of it will be shaded most of the time. And although I could put a 400 watt panel off the back it would be huge PITA. Fill the cabin roof? Run them off the life lines. All bring issues.

So if you bounce from marina to marina, ya it works , if you day sail it works if you cruise to far away places, not so much.

Does it hurt the value. On the plus side folks who want electric will pay, on the down side it’s a niche market. But you are looking for one buyer not 10. Call it neutral.

[user43]

Barbara -

I have a smaller boat - an NS22 O/B. I bought MOUSTACHES in 2012 and she came with a 10-year old bulletproof electric start Honda 9.9 outboard. That means if the engine was running and fired a shot into it, it would probably keep running.

In 2017 (I think), I changed that engine for a Tohatsu 9.8, electric start and electric tilt (the tilt feature @ $300. is priceless, especially with a pooched lower back AND I sail with NO drag). Yes, I could have had a full maintenance jobbie on the Honda for, maybe a grand, and, likely, most of the time, it would be fine but … life is only one. I was tired of the odd konk-out, miles offshore, and the not-always-cooperative start and just the mental headache of having to deal with various “what ifs” while trying to fully enjoy a truly beloved recreational activity. The aim of all of this is that it is fun, not something to worry about. Up here in Toronto, our sailing season is 6 months, minus time lost for rigging the boat once she is splashed and de-rigging her prior to haulout. The last time I checked (and this is hard to believe), I’m actually NOT getting younger (though I look like I am).

I switched engines to make it all more fun and it worked. In 8 - 10 years, I’ll do the same, again. I’ll be 85 years+.

How long do you keep your car ?? When you switch cars, is it because you must (or is it, mostly, because you want to .. or. to be fair, is it a bit of both) ?? Many cars cost a GOOD buck and are kept for a few years and traded in (at an impressive $$$ loss) because of … ??? … the new model ?? We are all victims of our cars and are willing to drop a fortune on them. In most cases, they are simply beasts of burden that we require for daily life.

Maybe it’s simply time for a new engine because you aren’t one of us who: loves to tinker mechanically, doesn’t want to see how long you can run that venerable diesel for, wants/needs/loves to save money and keep something going (which is genuinely noble, by the way). Maybe you want/deserve a fun and worry-free sailing experience that include starting up the old iron pig and enjoying the experience of motoring ?? (Like me.)

Thor et al make excellent points. The answer to your needs (electric vs. diesel) lies in the equation surrounding range. It is hard to beat the silence and majesty of electric motoring as long as you have enough juice in your batteries. And, it’s hard to beat the reliability and plain old/NEW smart design (and ease of maintenance) of a good Beta diesel. These workhorses (30 years younger than your Universal and filled with today’s ideas) power 90% of the thousands of long, heavy, HEAVY steel narrowboats that transit the canals of the British Isles, year in and year out. They are the best products out there. Some folks think that a Beta uses a Kubota tractor block. Partially true. They use the entire engine which is simply marinised.

From the BETA site:

Beta Marine’s engine range is based on the most advanced water-cooled diesel from Kubota. Every engine from the BZ482 up to the BV3300 incorporates the Kubota E-TVCS injection system.

Do YOU deserve a new engine on your boat ?? I dunno … maybe you don’t. (Sorry - I think you DO.) Yes, it’s a fair chunk o’ change but (and this speaks to your point) it WILL up the resale value of your boat. It will let you relax. It may not cost more than a 2-week Viking Riverboat European trip for two. If you want it, it’s not a wasteful or frivolous expense.

However … (there is always a however), before you embark on a change (Diesel or DC), make CERTAIN that you can avail yourself of an excellent shop/mechanic (highly recommended) who will ABSOLUTELY be able to deliver this completed job to you.

In the end, if you want a new power source, don’t forget that you deserve it. If you can afford it (and provide work for others and stimulate the economy) AND can find the right installer, go for it. It will make you SMILE.

And keep us in the loop.

Best of luck.

Ernie A. in Toronto