Halyard play- max hardened to completely let out for a run in light winds

I just purchased a Milwaukee 2809-20 M18 for raising the sail on my 30 Ultra. I am legitimately concerned about busting the halyard with this powerful tool.

I plan to mark my halyard coming into the cockpit to know when to stop and hand crank the last few inches. To help me think through this, what is the play in inches from when the halyard is completely hardened up to the maximum it would be let out for light winds on a run? All opinions welcome. I understand there is no “right” answer and everyone’s rigging and sails are different. Looking for diversity in opinions and experiences.

Many thanks.

Hi James, I’ve been raising and under load sheeting my sail with my 28V Milwaukee for 8 years now. There is no need to hand finish. I run my sail up most of the way in forward (higher speed) and finish the last few feet in reverse ( higher power). The drill will give you the same feedback that a winch handle does. When you get close to a taut luff, just give it a last pulse or two and it won’t get ripped out of your hand. It’s really easy and before long you won’t even notice you’re doing it.
There is one caveat to using these drills however. Reverse is trying to unscrew the chuck from the drill shaft. Milwaukee prevents this by retaining the chuck with a screw into the centre of the shaft. If cranked too hard this screw will break and you will have no end of problems getting the broken end out. This is well documented as is the easy fix.
Remove the chuck and red loctite it back on. Now you aren’t counting on that tiny screw anymore.
In order to lighten and shorten mine I went further and had the winch bit machined to thread directly onto the drill shaft. Then I just threaded it on with red loctite and it has never failed me.

James,

I use an E-Wincher on my N26, and like Paul find that it gives feedback when things are getting tight. I have a mark on the halyard that gives me a feel for when it’s getting close and how much it’s moving when adjusted. I originally set it so I thought I’d be good when it just passed under my dodger.

Over time, that’s changed, and I find myself pulling it almost to the front of my rope clutch. I’m not sure whether line stretch was a factor in that. I’d marked the halyard before I had to take the sail off and put it back on, and thought it was all the same, but that’s likely the bigger culprit. My halyard is polyester covered dyneema and my sail is a near-new dacron radial, so I don’t think stretch is all of it.

The point is, these factors will make your halyard marks depend on your rope type and sails, and likely change over time.

As for the difference between a sail tightened hard vs. eased, it isn’t a lot. If your set-up’s like mine, and most, the halyard will move two inches for every inch it lifts or drops the sail. I’ve found when I feel that my sail’s too tight that easing it more than a fraction at a time always results in too loose.

Bob

Thanks! Lessons I probably would have learned these lessons the hard way.

I too feel I get enough feedback from the Milwaukee. I’m new to Nonsuch so I can’t be sure but I use the same scale of tension I did on other mainsails: in a stiff breeze t tighten till I get a vertical crease start to form, in light winds allowing a little cupping to show between the sail slugs.

James,
Soave has a 2 speed power winch. At first I had the same concern, especially since the tension feedback isn’t as direct as if you are holding a right angle drill or cranking a handle.

I like idea of using a right angle drill. Power winches are expensive and require more maintenance.

After using Soave’s power winch the first season I learned the audible and visual queues available while hoisting the main. Lots of stuff will creak and pop before you snap the halyard… 7/16" would yield at about 6000 lbs the splice at the mast head might yield at about 2500 lbs, you’re likely to damage your mast collar before snap the halyard.

The working load of 7/16" is closer to 1200 lbs. To hoist you should be seeing < 400 lbs tension on the halyard. If you experience more check the rigging hardware especially the sheave at the top of the mast, the track in the mast, and the turning block at the mast collar. Soave had a seized block that I replaced this spring.

Once hoisted, if conditions are windy you may increase halyard tension to 500-600 lbs BEFORE you load the sail. Luffing, slack sheet, choker off. Once you’ve set your luff, when you load the sail tension will increase on the halyard, you may get close to the working strength as the mast flexes. In heavy air it’s difficult to get the right luff tension while the sail is loaded, better to take your time and set it up properly before you load the sail. By load I mean let it fill with air… sheet in and choker on.

If you experience heavy wind regularly you can go to 1/2" for an extra margin of safety. I avoid taking my 40 some year old boat into extreme conditions.

On Soave, the biggest risk we experience is if a batten catches on the wishbone during the hoist, less force is needed to break a batten or rip a sail.

I’m a fan of marking lines on a boat, it accelerates the learning process for trimming. I use a single reference mark that aligns with something on the boat like a rope clutch. Some boats draw multiple marks on the boat for different conditions.

On a Nonsuch there aren’t as many lines to mark as other boats but having reference marks on Halyard, Choker, Reefing lines can be helpful by providing clear reference point to start trimming from. I even have a mark on the mainsheet because enthusiastic crew over-trim the main when close hauled.

The marks on Soave’s lines are reliable indicators of tension. Boats reporting more than a inch or two deviation must have something else going on.

It takes some getting used to dealing with an unstayed mast, but most of the time mast bend seems to complement sail shape rather than hurt. Even if it didn’t complement sail shape our ability to control mast bend is limited… so we work with it.

Rob…

Thanks, Paul, for the insights.

All, I researched how to handle the broken screw problem Paul mentioned:

This is a well-known issue on many Milwaukee drills (including high-torque models like the M18 FUEL SUPER HAWG 2809-20 and similar M18 tools), as Paul mentioned.

The chuck threads onto the spindle with a standard (right-hand) thread. In reverse, the high torque tries to unscrew the chuck from the spindle. Milwaukee counters this with a small left-hand (reverse-thread) retaining screw that goes down the center of the chuck into a tapped hole in the spindle end. That screw tightens under reverse rotation, so the chuck stays put.

The problem is that the screw is relatively small/weak. Under heavy reverse loads (self-feed bits, stuck fasteners, high-torque applications, or just aggressive use), the head can strip, the screw can shear off, or the stub can break inside the spindle. Extracting a broken stub is a pain (left-hand extractors, careful drilling, heat, etc.), and the chuck can then spin free or cause other problems.

The retaining screw is a left-hand threaded fastener (often Torx/T40, hex, or similar depending on the exact model). It frequently shows threadlocker residue.

Note the threaded end and central hole for the retaining screw on the spindle.

For the chuck interior / screw removal process. open jaws fully to access the screw, then using an Allen key or similar to break the chuck free.

The easy permanent-ish fix (red Loctite method) is the common DIY solution that avoids relying on the fragile screw going forward.

  1. Remove the battery. Open the chuck jaws fully.
  2. Remove the left-hand retaining screw (turn clockwise to loosen — reverse thread). If it’s already broken, extract the stub carefully (left-hand bit, extractor, heat if Loctite was present, etc.).
  3. Break the chuck free from the spindle. Common method: tighten a large Allen key (or suitable bar) into the jaws, support the tool, and strike the key sharply counterclockwise (or use a cheater bar / impact carefully). Some people resort to cutting the chuck off if it’s seized.
  4. Clean the spindle threads and the internal threads of the chuck thoroughly (remove old Loctite, grease, debris).
  5. Apply high-strength red Loctite (e.g., Loctite 271 or 262) to the spindle threads and/or chuck threads.
  6. Thread the chuck back on and torque it down hard (factory torque specs on similar tools are high, often in the hundreds of in-lbs range for the chuck itself).
  7. Optionally reinstall a new retaining screw with a bit of Loctite as well, or omit it entirely once the chuck is permanently locked by the red threadlocker. The red Loctite is what now prevents reverse unscrewing.

Red Loctite creates a near-permanent bond that resists vibration and torque; removal later requires localized heat (~450–500 °F / ~230–260 °C) to soften it. This is intentional for the “set it and forget the tiny screw” approach.

Many users report this eliminates the recurring screw-failure problem on high-torque Milwaukee tools. Clean metal-to-metal contact is important for the Loctite to work properly. Allow full cure time (typically 24 hours for full strength).

Notes specific to the 2809-20 Super Hawg
This is a high-power right-angle drill with a keyed 1/2" chuck. The same left-hand retaining screw principle applies. Parts diagrams and service literature for related M18 tools show the chuck screw (various part numbers such as 05-88-xxxx series left-hand screws) and emphasize careful removal (sometimes with heat to break factory threadlocker). Always confirm the exact screw for your serial number if replacing one.

If the screw has already broken and the stub is stuck, left-hand drill bits or screw extractors used in reverse are the usual first approach. In extreme cases people cut the chuck off and replace it.

This fix is widely discussed among tool techs and users. The tiny screw is the weak link under heavy reverse torque. Red Loctite on the main chuck threads is the simple, robust workaround.

There’s a good deal of antidotal testing on you tube showing minimal differences between red and blue locktite. I guess there is a limit to how effective such a product can actually be.