So I set off to buy a clutch and what a mess that has become.
I needed to know the diameter of the halyard. The NS33 owner’s manual says 9/16". But no, my halyard is much smaller than that. I figured 1/2", but modern rope diameters are in mm. 12mm is apparently the closest to 1/2", but is slightly larger.
I looked up the diameter range for my self-tailer and it is 7/16" to 9/16".
Because of my dilemma, the guy in the store gave me about 15 inches of both 12mm and 14mm line. 14mm is also the modern equivalent of 9/16", but slightly larger.
I took those samples back to compare to my halyard and to try on my winch. I confirmed that 12mm is slightly larger than what I’ve got right now and it does work in the self-tailer. 14mm is much larger and is too big for the self-tailer.
So a question: what size halyard do I actually need for my relaxed sailing here in San Diego? Do I really need 9/16" if the boat has worked fine and even won races (before me!) with1/2"?
I was planning on putting up a second halyard and making the old one my backup at some point, though not right yet. But I do need to sort this out so I can get the clutch that I really need right now.
Also, some may recall I mentioned that the halyard has been popping out of the self-tailer. I took a good, hard look at it and discovered the problem: the feeder arm has been struck hard enough to bend it down so that it broke the stripper ring. The result is that the spring loaded half of the self-tailer doesn’t squeeze up as evenly as it should. It worked perfectly the two times we raised the sail before I purchased the boat, but has never worked correctly for me. I think this is yet another bit of damage that resulted from either prepping or trucking the boat during stormy weather. That gift just keeps on giving.
Parts are on order. It’s probably been forever since the thing was serviced, anyway.
In deciding on a replacement line, the first thing to remember is that when the manual specified line diameter, it stated that it was assuming “low stretch dacron line”. (BTW: “dacron” is a brand name for polyester, so they’re really talking about polyester lines here.)
My suggestion is that you go by some common measure such as tensile strength to find lines comparable to the 9/16th cruising quality lines sold today.
Here’s a comparison of the three best-known rope manufacturers’ cruising vs. performance lines:
(Disclaimer: some actually report tensile strength, some report 5:1 safe load; I converted to make them comparable.)
Notice that the tensile strengths vary from 11,700 to 13,200 lbs.
To be conservative, I picked a smallest performance line from each manufacturer that was at least as strong as their 9/16" low stretch dacron/polyester line.
This doesn’t indicate what line you should buy; I didn’t explore all the shopping options by any means. It just illustrates one way to make an apples to apples comparsion, and how paying for higher tech lines allows you to go to smaller diameters without giving up safety.
There’s 25.4 mm to an inch. So ½ inch rope is 12.7 mm, and 9/16 is 14.3 mm. Probably 12 mm will work okay, especially if it fits your rope clutch and self-tailer. I believe you can also look up info on rope manufacturers web pages for recommended rope sizes, keeping in mind that with higher performance ropes you can get better strength and less stretch in a smaller diameter vs the regular stuff. The recommended rope size also has to do with stretch, but if you are not racing you probably don’t care.
Also be aware that the stated sail area in the Nonsuch manuals is not the actual sail area. For example, on my NS30U the manual says 540 sq ft, when in fact it is about 630 sq ft. The manual amount excludes the foot area and roach in its calculation.
According to the guy at the sailing shop, the dimensions are measured at the factory with the line under tension. That might account for why the old, presumably 1/2" line appears smaller than the 12mm. It seems less flexible and maybe has set up or something.
When repaired, my winch should work for both 1/2" and 9/16". I have purchased an Antal V-grip 12 clutch which covers 10mm to 14mm, putting 12mm in the sweet spot for both it and the winch.
I will figure out what strength of line I need and choose a 12mm rope that meets the requirement.
Now. Does anyone know what kind of pull angles you can use with a clutch? The winch has a pretty high base and the halyard already pulls the mouse hole in my dodger up a tad. I need to make the line pass through that hole a little lower which means it will be exiting the rear of the clutch at an upward angle. That would also have the line approaching the winch from a low angle. I could put an angled base beneath the clutch to tilt it. I guess that would split the difference. That might be better. If the clutch cannot handle any pull angle at all, then I suppose I could make the angled base longer and put one of those line guides on each end to do all of the matching.
The very first thing I thought of was: Make the mouse hole in your dodger a little bigger. That way, the halyard won’t make contact with it. Otherwise, without knowing nuttin about nuttin technically here, in a perfect world, you want your halyard to exit the block at the base of the mast and go STRAIGHT back to the drum on your winch. That adds up almost zero friction. Everything that will make contact with your halyard on its way back to the winch creates friction
(and some things set up a fair bit of friction). It could be said that, with a powered winch “it doesn’t matter” but, in fact, it does. The more muling around “organizers”, blocks and, (sorry) worse, heading into a clutch at, possibly, a bit of an angle and then, heading out of at an even tighter angle … well, you got trouble in River City. And, the line itself is less happy with friction. I am sure the clutch will hold fine if locked on a line that exits it even at an extreme angle but, boy, will it ever create needless friction.
Somehow I knew you were going to chime in about friction.
Actually, I do pay attention. It is your frequent admonishments about friction that made me think about these angles and such in the first place. I probably should talk to the guy who made the dodger and see if he’ll raise the mouse hole a bit. (It’s only about 1/4" low.) But even with that and with no clutches or line guides or anything, the line still seems to approach the halyard winch from too low an angle. So there’s going to be some change of direction in the line, but I promise that I am trying to minimize it.
Right now my biggest concern is knowing my limitations. Are there maximum pull angles to/from a clutch for mechanical reasons (wear or breakage) or is it purely dictated by the friction that I deem to be tolerable?
The guy in the sailing store (who is a lifetime hardcore racer) seemed to think that the Antal clutch was the most robust and reliable. (They also carry Lewmar and Spinlock.) I hope he’s right. It certainly feels solid.
My guess us that the clutch’ll be robust, but the upward or sideways forces of too sharp an angle might be a bit of a problem for the fasteners through the deck. Not likely to fail, but more likely to leak.
Also, friction elimination will make life much more pleasant. I was amazed at how much better my halyard moved after I raised my clutch 1/2". And all if this really is crucial to minimizing chafe on the lines.
If you have access to the installation manual for your winch, it’ll probably give a preferred entry angle for the line. For many winches, I think it’s 5-7 degrees. That’ll be a factor independent of friction, wear and breakage on the clutch. Easier operation, fewer overrides.
My boat’s a mix of Lewmar, Spinlock, Antal, and Garhauer gear. I personally like Garhauer for robustness and value, then tend to shop Antal if Garhauer doesn’t sell something that works for me, but there’s nothing wrong with Spinlock or Lewmar, either.
Hmmm. I did think about the flexing stresses of the off-axis pulling. The guy in the store said a lot of people just use a fender washer, but that a UHMW backing plate would be better. But I was thinking about strength, not about leaks. Even with a backing plate I can see that working the line - slack, taut, slack, taut, etc. - at an angle could cause leaks. It will be beneath the dodger, but I cannot guarantee that the dodger will always be there.
I should emphasize that these are all only slight angles. If I were to put the clutch flat onto the deck, I think the worst angle would be less than 10 degrees up to the winch. In fact, in talking about it I’m now actually more worried about the entry angle for the winch than the stress on the clutch.
I was at the boat when I started this thread, but am home now and won’t be back for a few days. I think I will plan on putting the clutch on an angled block giving the best entry angle for the winch. If I can raise the mousehole a little and get a straight line out to my first fairlead on the cabintop, then everything will be fine. If I do have to put in another fairlead, I will position it so the line passes through at the smallest angle possible.
What is a good material for making the raised, angled base for the clutch? Strong and weatherproof, obviously, but hopefully also not too hard to machine (or to find.)
Two pics from when we purchased our 26. Spinlock XA clutches. Lines since replaced, winches rebuilt, clutches replaced (with newer ones - the one on the halyard was cracking) with new clutches, Spinlock XA ones, this time with the clutch parts suitable for the newer (smaller/stronger) line sizing.
You can maybe work out the angles. It is a 26, not a 33. The Bimini keeps water off, so leaks are not really a problem. HOWEVER, when replacing clutches, the screws at the front went into the core, the rear were bolted through solid glass. The core seemed good, fortunately. The access panels inside were barely big enough; getting the inside clutch bolt nuts and washers in place was a bit difficult, but possible. The outside clutches, rear bolts not an issue. I did use Boatlife Silicone to seal them; taped around them, cut with knife silhouette, etc. Worked out well.
Glad to have the clutches in place; we do use them, but also, for topping lift, ensure that it is also cleated, especially when sail not raised.
Maybe the above might give you some info relevant to your boat.
Thank you. I hadn’t thought about the clearance below the cabintop for backing plates and nuts. Another thing to think about before I tear into it.
Your clutches sit quite nicely on the cabintop and feed directly into the low-seated winches. My others do that, but the big winch for the halyard sits really high. That’s why I think I’ll probably have to make an angled block to mount the clutch on. Your clutches sit at angles to each other and I assume the lines approach them roughly parallel, so that is also good information about lateral angles.
The other line on my boat that does not have a clutch is the topping lift. It has its own self-tailing winch and a dedicated cleat next to it. I have it cleated off to that safety cleat because I really don’t like the thought of that heavy boom dropping on my head! (Though I think the safety strap and/or roll bar would actually catch it.)
Any HDPE (high-density polyethylene) or UHMW (ultra-high molecular weight) plastic that is UV resistant will do for making an angled block to shim the clutch into alignment with the winch, as will teak wood.
Since my recollection is that your boat’s in San Diego, you could probably have it made to your specs for not a lot at ePlastics: ePlastics.com, 5535 Ruffin Rd. San Diego, CA 92123, 1-858-560-1551. (Hey, folks, ever notice how Joe’s always reminding people to sign off with your boat info and location? This is why – you get people who know your area giving you more specific help.)
I had a spare piece of Starboard that I cut a little rectangle out of to do mine. Angled would’ve been better, but I’m a good-enough is good enough kinda guy. And, as you can see from the picture, the rectangle shoulda been 1/4" longer – no one comes and asks me for help getting an installation cosmetically perfect on their boat.
What you’re seeing here is a Garhauer clutch to the left of two Spinlocks. Raised a half inch, the halyard line runs nicely right to where the winch drum meets the winch base on my Lewmar 30 winch in the lower left corner. The little bit of grey glop barely visible underneath the Garhauer just between it and the Spinlock clutches is a bit of Bed-It buytl caulking tape that squeezed out and hadn’t been cleaned up when I took this pic.
I don’t know how an N33 is laid out. On N26s, there are removable coverplates on the cabin liner underneath where the winches and clutches would go. It’s fairly easy to throughbolt things and there’s plenty of room for bolts, fender washers or backing plates, and nuts to all fit underneath the cover.
– Bob
Me Gusta
Nonsuch e26U #233
100 miles north of ePlastics
“On V-Grip12 clutch, and generally speaking on every clutch, the maximum pull angle is 10 degrees from the straight alignment (either vertical or horizontal)”
I will try to get it as close to zero as possible, but it is helpful to know the maximums.
And thanks, Bob, for the reference to the plastics shop. Sorry if I sometimes space out the boat ID in my .signature. I did remember it for the first couple of messages in this thread.
You may recall that I was having problems with the halyard popping out of the self-tailer repeatedly until there was enough sail up to put some weight on it. It turned out that the self-tailer had been damaged when the boat was shipped. These winches are supposed to be serviced annually, and I don’t think this one has ever been. The old grease was dried out to an almost lacquer like coating. I did the service and re-assembled it with a new self-tailing assembly and feed arm. We went for a sail on Friday and now the sail just whizzes up!
I took some friends, one of whom used to sail weekly on a friend’s boat, and she was really blown away by the size of the sail (for the boat) and how easily it went up and down. Especially down. She also sailed for a while and was totally tickled by how easy it is to tack. (Sorry, that’s a lot of Ts.) If anyone saw us zig-zagging around the bay, now you know why.
I found the winch servicing process to be very simple, the most difficult part about it: cleaning off the old grease without getting it all over the cockpit. You can find YouTubes to help with the finer points. I expect I’ll be servicing the rest of the winches over the next few weeks. (One a day is plenty. More would get boring.) Some of my winches are Barient and I understand they are out of business and parts are only available from some place in Australia/NewZealand? So I think servicing those regularly is a very high priority. These machines are incredibly simple and rugged and look like they should last lifetimes with proper use and maintenance.
My halyard winch is a LewMar. LewMar sells a maintenance kit which includes enough grease and oil to do quite a few services, a brush to apply the grease (sparingly), and some spare springs for the ratchet pawls. If you are inclined to do your own servicing, be sure and get that before you start. They also sell a different kit (I don’t remember their exact names) that includes a whole bunch of spare parts. I got that one too, but turns out I didn’t need any of them except for one O-ring. You’ll need cleaning solvents for the old grease, some sort of tub to do the degreasing in, an old toothbrush, most of a roll of blue paper towels, and some nitrile gloves. If you are smarter than I am you will also cut about a 4x4 foot piece of blue tarp to drape over the cockpit seat to keep it clean. I didn’t totally trash mine, but it did require some minor cleanup that would have been simplified with a tarp. The only tool required for this is something to pop the top loose (I used a flat-blade screwdriver and my fist) except that I also had to replace the self-tailer which required a Phillps screwdriver. Very simple.
I read that some winches have a plastic shaft (probably here) and that, over time, the plastic absorbs water and expands causing a lot of drag. I found that to be the case with one of my winches. Some fine sandpaper quickly solved the problem so it should be good for another 40 years.
My Barient winches can be removed from the base plate screwed onto the deck. No need to remove base place from deck, Lewmar maybe different. Easy to clean in a Rubbermaid tub, the type you might use for washing dishes. I used a spray cleaner like Goo, but a different brand, to clean old grease and oil. Some people use diesel for cleaning, but then you need to figure out how to dispose of the diesel. I then wash/cleaned the parts again with Simple Green spray cleaner. Lemar has a pawl and springs kit (10 pces of each I think) which are the most likely bits you need, they fit Barient, but must replace in pairs, the Paul’s are a little shorter in length by about 1-2 mm.
Our 26 has 5 winches on it, and slowly since purchasing a few years ago it I’ve been cleaning them. All done now.
However, the main halyard winch - which was fine, operation-wise, seemed to have a bit more play than I thought correct. When I took the winch apart, I realized that the bolts holding the winch base to the cabin top were loose; needless to say, it was totally removed, cleaned, re-bedded, and the “bit more play” is now back to being what I’d call normal.
I should have questioned this and resolved the issue earlier; my only (, but poor) excuse is that one or two of the other winches were totally stuck.
Maybe someone else here has a winch with “more play” than expected…
I can’t speak to all winches, but a plastic shaft seems unlikely. Mine, however, does have plastic shaft bushings and I can see how they could cause problems. The parts kit from LewMar does come with replacements, but I didn’t use them as mine seemed fine. I’ll hang on to them and will probably do it next year, along with struggling some more with the dried on grease. (It isn’t where it will do any harm until then.)
Hello to All!
I serviced my winches a few weeks ago, prior to our taking a 2 week sail up the Hudson River.
For those interested in doiing this themselves, becoming more familiar with the boat/equipment and saving quite a few dollars by not having the yard service department do it for you, it is a fairly straight forward and ‘easy’ process.
I video recorded the process of how I did it (others may do it differently) for both a ‘single’ and ‘2 speed’ Barient winch. Will try to post links to the recordings sometime this coming week.
Peter Grabow
S/V CAKE WALK III
1987 30U 430
Jersey City, NJ
(and some things set up a fair bit of friction). It could be said that, with a powered winch “it doesn’t matter” but, in fact, it does. The more muling around “organizers”, blocks and, (sorry) worse, heading into a clutch at, possibly, a bit of an angle and then, heading out of at an even tighter angle … well, you got trouble in River City. And, the line itself is less happy with friction. I am sure the clutch will hold fine if locked on a line that exits it even at an extreme angle but, boy, will it ever create needless friction.
