Halyard Winch Replacement for a 30 Ultra

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Oh, I was confused by semantics and my own lack of sleep. I see that you were comparing “built-in” power winches to winches powered by a drill. I was picturing something new and novel like the built-in flagpole halyard winches. (Man, think of the hole that would put in your mast!) Sorry, most of my sailing experience prior to this Nonsuch was long ago and on large, traditional schooners where any winch is a novelty.

I do have a powered winch on my NS33 and wouldn’t (couldn’t) sail without it. It is mounted on the left side of the cabintop, which seems to be the normal place on a Nonsuch. The switch is just below it. The winch is self-tailing, but I cannot push it by hand and watch the sail go up at the same time because the dodger obstructs my view. So I look over the dodger and operate the winch with my foot. (The single button is the same as a foot-operated anchor winch button.) It sounds awkward I suppose, but my dodger has a built-in grab rail along the aft edge so I just hold on to that while hauling the halyard. It’s kind of like leaning on a rail, watching someone else do the work.

What I don’t have is a clutch for the halyard. The other control lines all have clutches, so I’m curious if there is some reason not to have one for the halyard. And, any advice for selecting or installing one?

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Writing on behalf of a fellow sailor who cannot write for himself until the finger recently injured recovers, I’ll echo the warnings about powered self tailing winches. With the need to keep one hand on the switch and an eye on the sail, my normally careful friend made the mistake of trying to grab a new halyard that had slipped out of the self-tailer because his rigger had undersized it. Foot switches sound like a brilliant idea. I mayself am saving up for an electric handle.

– Bob
Me Gusta
Nonsuch e26U #233

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I have clutches for all my lines and have always done that on any boat I’ve owned. It certainly is a whole lot quicker and easier when tightening a line not to have to belay it to a cleat.

Joe Valinoti
S/V iL Gatto NS30U #221
Sea Harbour YC
Oriental, NC USA

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Potential dangers of electric winch use found in Lewmar website (and repeated here describes a terrible accident in Antigua where a winch was used to hoist a man up the mast.

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About the halyard slipping out of the self-tailer cleat: I had this happen a number of times. I finally realized that I need to actually pull the halyard by hand enough to take up the slack and put some tension on the line. Not a lot, just enough so the line remains caught in the self-tailer.
I wonder if I am putting too many turns on the winch. I always put three turns on, then over the hook and into the self-tailer. Maybe three turns gives the winch too much grip? Maybe two would slip a bit and pull the line into the self-tailer without pre-tensioning? But then, since I don’t have a clutch for the halyard, that means the self-tailing cleat on top of the winch would be carrying a lot more load during the entire sail. Somehow I like the idea of the winch drum carrying the load.

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Last year I installed a new Spinlock XTS clutch for main halyard, replacing the old original one. I also added Spinlock XAS double clutch next to it for the reef lines.

If the rope is popping out of your self-tailer, perhaps it’s time to rebuild it? Maybe the self-tailer springs need replacing? Also, maybe the winch is not correctly oriented for the position on the rope on the self-tailer. I serviced mine last year and recall reading about the orientation of the self-tailing mechanism to the direction of the user.

Hope that helps,

Don

’87 NS30U #369 - Breezin’

Vancouver, BC

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In the case I was describing, two things were going on.

The central problem was that the rigger had replaced a halyard with a smaller diameter line the was outside the range that the self-tailer was designed to grip. I think Harkin jaws take a smaller range of sizes than some others; instead, they sell different jaws to install for use with smaller lines.

The rigger had also suggested that the line was slipping because – he said – too many wraps around the winch reduced the tension pulling the line into the self-tailer jaws. He claimed it should only be two wraps. We later learned that Harkin recommends four. (As does Lewmar for my manual self-tailers.)

Moral: don’t rely on anyone but the manufacturer of your specific winch to tell you the right size line or the correct number of wraps.

I’m a big fan of line clutches, too.

– Bob
Me Gusta
Nonsuch e26U #233

[user43]

I, too, wondered about this notion of “too many wraps” on the winch drum. When I first began to sail my NS22, I put FOUR wraps of the halyard around the little single-speed Lewmar #16 ST winch. I did that as I simply assumed that the more wraps, the more grip, no ???

Eventually, due to my shoulder crapping out, I added the drill and WinchBit to the process. That winch grips the line like no tomorrow. NEVER had a touch of slippage and those four wraps allow you to ease off, very slowly, in tiny increments, on the halyard tightness.

Honestly, I cannot fathom how this rigger came to this bizarre conclusion regarding the amount of wraps around the post.

Randy - (and this will cause controversy and it’s an old pet peeve with me) - Before you go off and purchase a WinchRite … my experience with these machines (using 2 machines that belong to a couple of my buddies) has not been that great. They are built in China using all sorts of “mystery parts” especially the no-name lithium batteries and chargers. They do break down and (big complaint) don’t really power up the big sails on a bigger Nonsuch. Worse, if you have a problem, the only fix is to send them off to WinchRite (in America, I believe/hope), paying for all shipping and, years ago, a $250.00 “rebuild” charge. I will assume that they would be returned in good working order but the turnaround (even before COVID) took months. The last time I looked out the window, you (in Buffalo) and me (just up the road in Toronto) have a maximum 6-month sailing season and your WinchRite might be AWOL for most of it. These devices are sold as a convenience item that, on paper, are well thought out but not, IMHO, well-built. As long as they work and REALLY get that sail to the top, fine. Sorry, the build quality is not as good as it should be and cannot touch, by a country mile, the build quality of a good name-brand construction quality right angled drill with a $50.00 WinchBit. And … when not in sailing season, you own one hell of a good drill that should outlast the boat (and, maybe, even you). AND … that combo is, I believe, cheaper than a WinchRite.

Or … really spend the bucks and buy a made-in-France Ewincher 2. This is a gorgeous, pricey machine that does it all and has superb build quality and an excellent reputation. Sailing-wise, it’s the most versatile thing out there.

https://theyachtrigger.com/product/ewincher-2/

All of this is less hassle than replacing your Barient winch with a powered winch.

Ernie A. in Toronto

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I have been using an inexpensive Ryobi 1/2" cordless drill on our 26 and the only problem I have is that you have to keep an eye on the hoist, once the sail is all of the way up that little drill will twist your wrist like you cannot believe. I might have to put a handle extension on it.

Tim in STL
White O’morn NS26Ue #216
Harbor Point Yacht Club
West Alton, MO

[user43]

I must use 2 hands on my Hilti drill - one for the trigger and the other on the extension handle. Otherwise, I can’t hold it. As my fingers are no where near the self-tailing top of the winch, it does the tailing and my hands are safe. I’ve attached a photo of my non right angled drill. I must lower the dodger to use the drill but I always sail with the dodger lowered.

Ernie A. in Toronto

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We went sailing today. I forgot to try the four turns bit, but I left four turns on the winch for next time, just to remind me.
It does pop the line out until the sail is a ways up the mast and starting to get too heavy to haul by hand. I looked up the halyard size in the owner’s manual and it recommends 9/16" line, but what I have sure looks like 1/2" to me. I need to look for the owner’s manual for the winch and see what it says, but this might account for my problem.

I definitely plan to add a clutch, and soon.

Now, back to the power winch thing. I really like the power winch on my boat. It’s quiet and powerful. And I didn’t have to buy or install it - always a big plus. I’m not going to drop it into the drink and it is made to operate in salt water. It is also made to be repairable - provided you can get parts when it finally breaks down.
That French power winch handle looks pretty fancy. It ought to be for the price, and also ought to be reliable. Don’t know about that, but I’d sure ask if it is user serviceable at all. I’ve used, owned, and rented a lot of professional grade (and crappier) power hand tools in my life. They are not made for salt water use and none of them float. The better quality ones (Makita, Hitachi/Metabo, some Milwaukee, some Hilti) will last a long time, but consider this: most tool rental places that I know of rent Makita, not much Milwaukee. Just sayin…
You might want to hose out your drill from time to time with WD-40. Not sure, but I’d think about it.
And if you drop it in the water, well that’s a really short lifespan. If a built-in goes into the water it is the least of your problems.

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I try very hard to keep my built-in out of the water, Brian!!

Joe Valinoti
S/V iL Gatto NS30U #221
Sea Harbour YC
Oriental, NC USA

PS – My electric windless, like many other’s installed on Nonsuches, is nothing but a Lucas starter and easily repaired.

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Let me tell you about the FOUR Lucas starters I had to buy for my Austin-Healy 100-4, not a single one of them lasted more than a month. The dealer finally washed his hands of the problem and said that Lucas would not replace any more pf them for him. They refunded my original bill and told me to look elsewhere, I did I sold the 100-4 and bought a Porsche 356. I wish I had either one of those cars today.

Tim in STL
White O’morn NS26Ue #216
Harbor Point Yacht Club
West Alton, MO

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We own White O’morn a NS26Ue and we have been using our little Ryobi 1/2" drill to raise the sail. We have a 4amphour battery and it will raise the sail at least ten times before needing a charge (at LEAST). The nice thing about it is that while it has more than enough torque to raise the sail, if I find that someone forgot to release the last reefing line the drill will balk at trying to raise the sail any further without trying to break my wrist. It has always had enough power to easily raise the sail all of the way. This setup is far less expensive than going with Hilti or Milwaukee. WE already had a few Ryobi tool and batteries so this was an easy choice for us.

Tim in STL
White O’morn NS e26U #216
Harbor Point Yacht Club
West Alton, MO

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[user11]

Like Tim I’ve been using an electric drill and a winchbit for years to raise the sails. Works great and I also use the drill for projects on board,

Mike
BIANKA
1986 30U
Long Island.