Length of sail lashing (or more Nonsuch White Magic)

Newsgroups Archive Prior to 2025
1

Hello all -

The weather is too crappy to sail up here so I thought I’d start a riff on a recent thread.

This is gonna sound overly simplistic but … When each model of the Nonsuch was designed, a sail with particular dimensions was also spec’d. The measurements were detailed in the owners’ manuals. And, of course, one of the measurements was the length of the foot. And, yes, conflicting information has been known to arise in these manuals.

Regardless, I was one of the many newbie owners who bought one of these fabulous boats and found a shackle at the clew of the sail and, naturally, attached same to the back of the boom.

One good windy day and … “BANG”. That shackle busted and, luckily, nothing else was damaged except my pride (not the first time nor will it be the last time). So, without even checking any further (read the book, typical male, read the book), I lashed the clew to the boom. Only later on did I discover that this was the correct approach.

BUT … I figured that the length of the lash (regardless of how many loops, thickness, etc.) should be around the same as if IT WAS SHACKLED to the boom i.e. just a few inches. It just did not make sense to me that Mark Ellis (or Ed Botterell) had actually worked out some magical “distance” (that the clew should be) from the back of the boom - I feel that their thought is that the sail should sit with clew closely attached. Otherwise, aside from looking a bit goofy, extra distance does introduce a possibility that that clew is sitting “too high” or “too .. ???” from the end of the boom.

This is providing that the foot of the sail is the designed length.

Also, the longer the lash, the less distance the boom can travel back to flatten the sail, no ??

The lash length on my sail is around 2" - the length of a shackle. I can choke the boom way back and flatten the dickens out of the sail.

And so, I conclude by really questioning lash lengths of 22" or, honestly, even 8". I don’t believe that this is what the designer(s) wanted.

Comments ??

Ernie A. in watery Toronto

2

Ernie, Mike Quill told me this past weekend on Phoenix that the sail should not be shackled (mine is) as it will wear the cast aluminum and indeed should be lashed ( length about 4”-6” ) .
Not only will this lash prevent wear on the casting but in case of emergency the lashing is can simply be cut.

Terry & Clarise
nonsuch30u@gmail.com
647-205-9609
#404 Toronto

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Hi Terry -

As I mentioned, my sail is lashed and I’ve known about this practice for years. Mike is certainly correct. And, almost all of us do lash the sail.

My question concerned how long the lashing should be. I questioned the idea of a lashing that seemed, to me, to be overly long. All of that said, it is interesting to hear Mike’s opinion of how long the lashing should, in fact, be. Food for thought, as always.

Ernie A. in Toronto

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What material (type, diameter, spec, how many turns) do you lash with? And add a photo of the lashing and how it is terminated. Bob Horne, 2989 N26C, 248, Encore, Pocasset, MA

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I think that mine is 5/16” and about 4” to 6” long. Don’t know how many wraps, but at least 6.

Joe Valinoti
S/V iL Gatto NS30U #221
Sea Harbour YC
Oriental, NC USA

6

About 10 years ago, upon advice from this group, I changed from a shackle to a lashing. I used some hi-tech lashing material. After a few uses the lashing suddenly broke while under sail. My husband insisted that we go back to a shackle so that is what we did. No problem observed since. My shipyard seems to like it that way, but I always wonder if this is the best thing to do.

Barbara Melanson
Gimlet II 33 14
Groton Long Point, CT

7

Barbara -

Only a lashing should be used so that, if necessary to save the sail or the boat (or you), it can break. On a Nonsuch, sorry, it should be a lashing. If a shackle breaks (as mine did) it can take out your eye, your face or your head. And (almost forgot), a lashing makes a far more flexible joint than a steel shackle.

Your shipyard may like a shackle (because it sure looks like a place where a shackle could live) but, with respect, they know less about Nonsuches than you or your husband or all of us.

All of that said, I use a length of 3/16ths Dyneema that is probably too strong and wouldn’t break. No good, frankly. Others may (hopefully) chime in with the correct sized lo-stretch non-Dyneema line that should actually be used.

But, a shackle ?? Nope, never.

Ernie A. in Toronto

8

Thank you, Ernie. That does make sense.
Where is the best place to find directions on the proper way to do lashing.
Barbara

9

I thought the intent of using a lashing instead of a shackle was so that it could be cut if need be, not that the lashing wold work as a fail safe and be the first thing to break in an extreme situation. The manual in the section on rigging states “Clew lashed to eyeplate at end of wishbone”. It does not specify the line to be used or the method of lashing.

When I bought La Reina a shackle was fitted. Eventually while waiting for a new shackle to arrive I installed an eye bolt in the boom casting and used a lashing. The eyebolt snapped off in 12 knots of breeze. The eye bolt was not load rated, my mistake. I used an eyebolt so that the edges of the casting wold not cut the lashing. An alternative is to use a file to smooth the hole in the casting. I again have a twist shackle in place. An additional problem with a shackle is that the shackle is made of stainless steel and wears the casting as it moves. If not dealt with this can lead to the casting failing. I have added stainless steel plates to the casting to the shackle works on the plates rather than the casting.

A lashing has the added benefit of allowing you to adjust the position of the mainsheet. A longer lashing moves the boom and hence the mainsheet back. This keeps it further from the person on the helm. If it is too long the boom will contact the mast before the sail is fully flattened by the choker so there are limits to what you can do.

Since I use a shackle contrary to the manual and the advice of many like Ernie, I can’t give you guidance on the line type of lashing technique.

Mark Powers

10

Mark -

I think that you are quite correct with regard to cutting the lashing. but, after that whole (well-thought-out) explanation, you conclude by stating that you use a shackle !!

You never cease to amaze me, skipper.

Ernie A. in Toronto

11

I am nothing if I am not inconsistent. Ralph Waldo Emerson had something to say about consistency and hobgoblins, although I think he had something different in mind than erratic, irrational behavior.

Mark Powers

12

Barbara -

Honestly, I do not know of a “correct” way to do this lashing but, it simply means “tying the clew of the sail to the end of the boom”. It isn’t like doing a splice or anything as intricate as that.

I use a 3’ length of (I think) 3/16th Dyneema. It is brutally strong. Now that I think of it … I break my own rules because there is a big SHACKLE attached to the end of the boom that I tie the lashing to. Oooooops … silly me - I’ll look into changing that and find a sensible way to tie to the boom itself. Anyway, I tie a bowline to the clew and then run the line through the … shackle … and do it over and over until I have around 1’ left and then I tie oodles of reef knots in the line until I almost run out of line.

The next time I’m at the boat, I’ll take a picture.

One thing about Dyneema - it feels waxy and knots tend to untie themselves. i have, sometimes, taped or sewn the bitter end to keep it from untying itself.

Ernie A. in Toronto

13

I wonder if those experiencing clew shackle/lashing failure are still using the knife like slot in the original clew casting and not using a high quality eye bolt through the hole?

Richard Lane
Port Townsend

14

The hole in the casting on my 26 is too small to loop line through it more than twice. See pics attached. Maybe a 30 is bigger or some have drilled it out to be bigger??

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Best

15

Don,

Your pictures of the enlarged hole look incredibly similar to the condition of my boom casting. In addition to worrying about how many lines could get through it, I worried about chafe on lines running through that worn hole and over the rough casting.

I gave up, put the shackle back on, and ran my lashings through the shackle. I figured that: (1) at least it would be easier to inspect for chafe that way; and, (2) if this is as far as the elongation’s progressed in a 37 year old boat, it’s not an urgent problem. (Or, at least, not yet.)

At some point, I expect that I’ll do one of three alternatives. I may enlarge the hole and put a chafe-reducing grommet around it. I might enlarge the hole and put an exactly fitting eyebolt through it, with plates or fender washers on both sides so it can’t wobble and wear. Or, I might throughbolt a plate on the fitting with a suitable ring or an eye welded on it.

If I was good enough at doing lashings and could figure out a way to wrap the lashings around the boom fitting, that might be another solution. I don’t have the skill to see how to do that in a way I’m convinced would work well.

– Bob
Solar Wind
Nonsuch 26C #143

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I used a soft shackle this year. Have not sailed enough yet to know if it was a good idea.
Bill Evans “companionship “ 30U 465. West River.

17

Hi Bill,

I lash my sail as others have described, the lash is about 2 inches long.

However, I like the idea of a soft shackle. How did you select your shackle? I have been reluctant to buy one as I don’t know what size/strength to get. My lashing has too many loops to count, likely stronger than conceivably needed by a factor of 10.

Anyway, any information, even a picture, of your shackle would be helpful.

Thanks,

…..Ed

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Ed and Marlene Brost

SaSeaCat, NS30322

Sarnia Yacht Club

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I am headed down tomorrow. Will take a pic. I just Read about soft shackles in practical sailor ( I think) just have them on boat for no particular reason. Impulse buy.
Bill

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19

For those using or considering using an eye bolt as part of the figging for the clew here is an interesting read. https://www.e-rigging.com/how-to-select-and-install-eye-bolts

Mark Powers

20

I was all set to buy one of those fancy SS Swivel Hoist Rings – until I saw the price $264.12 !! I think I will stick with lashing.

Tim in STL

White O’morn NS26U #216

Harbor Point Yacht Club

West Alton, MO