Maximum rudder angle & rudder stops

[system]

Hey all,
Recently I posted a note in the ‘Rudder position indicator’ thread about my rudder stops which are placed so as to allow the rudder to turn more than 60º to either side. The issue for me is that the rudder position sensor (part of the Raymarine ST4000 wheelpilot system) would not accommodate rotation of more than 60º. Mine in fact turns to almost 90º which clearly is not necessary in any situation and precludes the possibility of using the rudder sensor. So my plan is to somehow relocate the rudder stops to prevent the rudder from turning more than 60º.

Today I am looking for input from other owners about other methods for installing rudder stops. It seems there were a few different ways the factory did this during construction, according to some other comments I saw on that thread. I think one owner said he had cables which controlled the maximum rotation.

Attached here is a picture showing the current sad situation with my rudder stops. The pic is taken by leaning into the stbd lazarette. You can see there is a sturdy stopper mounted on the very front, underside of the quadrant. This is stopped by aluminum plate tabs attached to and protruding above the gussets supporting the rudder post housing. On the closer, starboard side you can see this tab is mounted on the aft side of the gusset, with an aluminum reinforcing plate on the foreside. On the port side, you can see that this is reversed, the stop tab is mounted on the front. I did move this port side stopper some years ago, after an incident where I was distracted while backing up under power and let go of the wheel, and it crashed, and hopped over the port stopper. It was bent back, low enough for the quadrant stopper to jump over it. In my wisdom (?), I moved the stopper to the front side hoping this would be a better solution.

Today, a few years later, while I am in the process of renewing the boat for my 8th decade and hopefully hassle-free sailing pleasure, this is something I want to fix. As you can see there is some damage and delamination in both rudder post gussets and my fix will involve clearing all the hardware of the gussets and repairing them, likely with new glass and/or maybe carbon cloth and epoxy, and possibly some additional structural plates on both sides.

I am not sure how I will deal with the rudder stops. I do want to move them to restrict maximum rudder angle to less than 60º, but unsure at this point how and where I will attach them. It doesn’t look like using these gussets is such a good idea. In my other Hinterhoeller boat - Niagara 35 - I bolted an aluminum angle underside the cockpit sole (this was also part of reinforcing the cored floor which receives the top of the rudder post in that boat as that is a well-known weak spot with the Niagaras). In doing this I attached the rudder stops to this very strong new structure above the quadrant. Same may be possible with the Nonsuch.

I am very interested to know how some other of you Nonsuch owners have dealt with this, or if you have different setup for rudder angle stops, and of course I welcome thoughts on the matter from you all.

Best regards,
Greg Silver
Misty Cat 26C #121
St. Peter’s, Cape Breton
Nova Scotia

[BRIAN_CAYER]

Hi Greg,
I wonder if it would be possible to attach a uhmw or other material doughnut over the existing stop post? By measuring the gap at 60* to each respective side and making the difference between the ID and OD that amount on the doughnut radius.
Just a thought.

Brian Cayer
Spirit~Wind
N30U 419
Westbrook, Ct

[system]

Greg,
Shame I didn’t see your post before I went down to the boat today. I will see if I can find a photo to confirm but my recollection is that the stops on La Reina are on the forward side of the gussets. If yours were there it would reduce the movement.

Mark Powers

[system]

Found a photo. The stops are at the front. I think the photo resolution is too high. I can’t attach it to the post.
Mark Powers

[system]

Here is a photo of the stops on White O’morn. I do know that there was an “Incident” while backing up the new to me Nonsuch.

Tim in STL
White O’morn NS e26U #216
Harbor Point Yacht Club
West Alton, MO

[system]

I had to reinforce mine shortly after I got her in 2002. There were visible cracks in the gussets but fortunately the tabbing was ok. So all It did was re-glass the existing gusset’s. I then bolted a second layer of 3/4 ply on each side and glassed and re-tabbed the new structure. I used larger 1/4 inch aluminium stops that were 1 inch smaller than the gusset side to side and extended from the bottom high enough to t meet the stop .I bolted them in place.

Reglassing fixed the structure and the additional ply we need. Large stops spread the load.

The danger obviously is going in reverse and losing control of the wheel for even a second… Going full over in reverse does nothing but break stuff.

[system]

Hi Greg,
We have the sister boat to you (sail number 120).
Your post helps explain why we have 2.5 rotations from port, or starboard full to neutral/center.
Now I am thinking if this is too much, and stops would help.

The question is “what is the optimum?”.

It would be interesting to see what the norm is across 26’s and other lengths.
Cheers,
Mike and Ashley Read
NautiGirl 26C
Bath, Ontario

[system]

I suggest checking the chain in the binnacle. On my 30 the quadrant has a circumference of 64” and there is 16” of chain. One chain length = 90° or 45° each way. One turn in each direction. Going over that would mean that the chain has less than full engagement with the sprocket. Going a bit further is really exciting (no steering).

Chancy 005 came with a really flimsy cable stop system which broke when I was backing out of the slip. I replaced it with more robust cables, hardware and anchors. I included a compression spring to reduce the shock load.

I can’t find photos of the upgrades but I am confident that the system is now 100%. I got the new cable and hardware from a riggers supply store not marine hardware. There is a big difference.

This is the only photo I can find of the upgrade. You can see the eye bolt the cable is attached to (there os a compression spring on the other side).

I am not advocating for cable stops, just suggesting that you pay attention to what is happening in the binnacle.

All the best.

Mike Jennings.
NS005C Chancy.
Port Moody, BC.

[system]

Hi Mike J and others:
Thank you for your replies to my original post on this thread. It’s helpful to hear from all of you. Mike J, just for clarification on your ‘cable stop’ set up: it looks like your quadrant-mounted stopper is on top of, and at the aft side of your quadrant, so the pull force on the stopper cables is athwarthsips? Also, I’m not clear on the compression spring, I see something on the cable by the cable eye at the eyebolt. Is that the compression spring, or is it something with how the eyebolt is attached? Also interesting to note your chain length. I will look at mine, but I suspect it must be a longer chain as my boat seems to have somewhat more wheel rotation than yours. I note yours is a very early early build at 005.

Greg Silver
Misty Cat 26C #121
St. Peter’s, Cape Breton
Nova Scotia

[system]

Hi Greg,

You are correct about the stopper location and the pull forces.

The eye bolt is long and it goes through the original board which I substantially reinforced with plywood including gussets to the transom. On the opposite side of the board to the eye there is a fairly substantial compression spring, washers and lock nuts. This allows about 1/4 to 3/8 restrained movement at full lock rather than a snatch.

I also made a doughnut that clamps to the stopper to ensure the cable loops can’t jump off the stopper.

I believe that Chancy is the first Nonsuch that wasn’t pre sold. She was sold at at a boat show.

Mike Jennings.
NS30C 005.
Port Moody, BC.

[system]

Interesting photo of white O’morn.

On 26C #28 the quadrant is much closer, almost touching the gussets. Either the quadrant is lower on the shaft or the gussets are much larger. I think the gussets are larger because the cables run very close to the cockpit. The two metal stops are also shorter.

The two stops are on the front of the gussets. Wheel turns 2 rotations stop to stop. Hard over the boat spins on a dime so I don’t see the advantage of increasing the angle.

Tom
26C #28 North Star
Penetang
Only 100 days until splash.