Wow! You got CAD files for sails others have made? That’s awesome. I have been talking to the local Doyle loft about a new sail. They are all confident that they can build me a sail, but I like everything about my current sail except for the age and wear, so I don’t want something that they design, I want a copy. I sure wish I had the original design drawings. That would greatly simplify things. I am going to ask them if I can have a copy of the drawings or CAD files when they are done. Will they refuse? I’d sure like to hear from someone who has their drawings.
Brian,
My impression is that age doesn’t change a sail’s exterior dimensions, just the bagginess of the panels within it.
If you’re willing to have your current sail off the boat for a while, you might be able to ask your preferred sailmaker to take it to their loft, lay it out, and copy the measurements.
Can’t offer CAD drawings for an N33, but FWIW, here’s a drawing of my Ullman tri-radial with the caveat that in hindsight I would’ve liked a sail cut with the clew a bit higher.
Note that this shows panel layout.
Here’s a similar picture from my Quantum bid:
In contrast, this renders a picture rather than CAD.
Note also that the Ullman drawing shows the view from starboard of the boat, which the Quantum picture is showing a sail viewed from port of the boat.
I got quotes from Mack, Quantum, Precision, and Ullman.
In hindsight, I wish I’d gone with a loft that had more experience with Nonsuch boats. I actually ended up making a bad compromise. I went with a sailmaker that was recommended by a friend that was relatively close but not the closest. It turned out that they were close enough to him to be willing to provide good service, but not close enough to me for them to do the same. Another difference was that my friend actually had them copy his old sail, while I relied on them to do measurements for mine.
– Bob
1 Like
I have been told that my sail has 5 years of life left on it. I believe it is the original sail on the boat which would make it 28 years old. I suspect that the sailmaker who told me that was assuming that I sail the boat 3 or 4 times a year like most old people apparently do, while I actually sail it 2 or 3 times a month. (Five times in September.) But that just makes the estimated lifetime shorter. I hope to own the boat for many years to come, but my health is not great - though I’m working on it! - and there is the grim possibility that I may need to sell the boat within those 5 years or not long thereafter. Or my wife may have to sell it. The better condition the boat is in, the faster it will sell and the less burden it will place upon her. If the sail is shot, the boat loses almost that much value unless we replace the sail at that time.
So we can pay for a new sail now and enjoy it for 5 years, or we can put it off longer and pay (probably more) for it when the time comes to sell.
I really like how my sail is configured and I don’t want to change it. I’ve read every posting over the years since I bought my boat and some of them deal with issues that seem associated with changes to boat rigging. Maybe someone had a new sail made and it was different from the old one which necessitated changes to other rigging, etc. I don’t want those hassles, so I want a direct replacement - preferably identical to the old one. I know, it’s unsailorly and I really should want to tweak and mess with things, but I don’t.
I had dealt with the local Doyle loft last year regarding some repairs. They kept saying “we don’t do it that way anymore” and stuff like that. They seemed a bit inflexible and probably more oriented to the wealthy locals who race their boats and always have to have the latest thing. I do not. They were also pretty clueless about Nonsuches and that made me nervous. For example, they kept insisting - almost to the point of argument - that my sail cover rested on the boom. It was very hard to convince them that there is no boom at the bottom of the sail. They got it after I showed them a photo, then reverted to their original thinking once the photo was gone. So I found another loft, uh, Ullman Sails, and the guy was much more open minded about the rig and did some repairs for me. He even expressed the desire to go for a sail and learn about this “new” rig. That was encouraging and I expected him to make my next sail and asked for an estimate. He delivered the estimate along with the partially repaired sail and cover. He had not done everything that we agreed he would do, so how can I trust him? So the decision was back in flux.
A few weeks ago I approached Doyle again, this time to discuss a new sail rather than repairs. Big difference that makes: I got the boss and he was willing to pay attention. He still doesn’t know anything about Nonsuches, but he has the Botts sail design for the NS33 on his computer and I think that might be the sail I’ve got. He actually came down to the boat and looked it over, though we couldn’t raise the sail in the slip due to the wind. (My boom is long and heavy enough to trash the boat in the slip next to me should the wind catch it!) He has also told me that there was a NS33 or NS36 in the slip next to him in Ensenada last weekend (WHO WAS THAT?) and that he had studied the rig some more. So he is ignorant, but willing to learn. That is a relief. His bid for sail and cover, supposedly identical to what I’ve got, is actually slightly lower than the Ullman verbal estimate, and I think that one was for the sail alone.
So it’s looking like I might be buying a new sail from Doyle this fall or winter. The only other sail I’ve ever bought was in 1991 or ‘92 and it was for a small gaff-rigged catboat that my friend and I built. It was easy. We had drawings of the sail from the designer and it basically just tied on and you fiddled with the gaff halyards to make it set correctly. So that doesn’t really count as useful experience. I don’t even know what I don’t know and it’s a big investment, so I’m open to any suggestions, things to think about, conjectures, opinions, etc.
Are drawings or CAD files available for any NS33 sails? Or are they generally kept proprietary? Should I actually even care? I am going to remove my sail and take it in for them to measure and make sure they’ve got the correct design.
Are the Botts sail designs the standard ones for Nonsuches or are they customs done after the boats were out in the world? They seem to be respected. And the Doyle guy says they’ve got them for all models, in case anyone else is looking for a new sail. He got them from another Doyle guy named Bill Durant.
I’m also interested in the process of buying a new sail. What is customarily included and what are extra charges. For example, if I order an identical replacement and the new one isn’t really identical causing some rigging issue, should I expect them to correct it as part of the purchase or should I expect to have to pay for it? Is it customary for them to come out and sail the boat with the new sail on, just to make sure it’s good, or should I expect to pay extra for that? (Their rate for showing up at the boat is $135/hr.) Is it customary to pay up front, a partial deposit up front, or upon completion?
If you got this far, thanks for reading another of my novelettes. 
And for any feedback you might offer.
Having just gone through this, I feel your pain, Brian.
As I understand it, Ed “Botts” Botterel was part of the C&C Yachts alumni group that contributed to Nonsuches from the beginning, along with Gordon Fisher (yachtsman, Nonsuch initiator, and former big C&C customer), Mark Ellis (former C&C designer), George Hinterhoeller (former C&C factory lead), and the Klacko brothers (former C&C spar builders). He took over the Ted Hood sail loft in Kingston in 1978, and changed its affiliation from Hood Sails to Doyle in 1991. He’s also the author of the majority of original how-to-sail articles written about the boats.
So, I don’t know the extent to which Botts’ sails were “standard” but I feel safe saying his designs are definitely well-respected and tried-and-true.
Based on my experience, I’d suggest asking your sailmaker to go out with you with your current sail to see how it works and understand your sail style and preferences and to come out with you on an evaluation sail after the new one is installed. And, I’d get the latter commitment in writing, as well as ask for their policy in writing on what they will cover if there are problems with the new installation.
I don’t know whether sailmaker’s typically expect to be paid for that on top of the sales price, but they can always price it in if they expect extra. At least then you’d be comparing apples to apples.
There was one striking thing that every one of the sailmaker representatives thought was important for me to know: theirs was the only outfit that wasn’t a bunch of no-good, money-grubbing thieves.
In fact, my impression is that you can expect a reasonable quality product from any of the big name sail lofts. What varies is the price you can negotiate and the local level of service and customer support.
– Bob
Sail design for a Nonsuch 36 (Composit Engineering mast and boom)
I’m very very very happy with it.
The green drawings are what I handed over to the sailmaker, it’s my “design”. The panel layout is what I got from the sailmaker to approve before they started building.
This was the quote and this is what I paid august 2008:
“1 pc of Short batten mainsail of Challenge Fastnet D7.88 dacron, 16.15m luff x 8.53m foot, about 69 sqm area, with 2 reefs for US$2660
Add: Deliver by DHL courier to The Netherlands for US$560
Total: US$3220”
They declared a value of $300 on the import papers and was the amount customs used to calculate 30% import tax over. The total costs were **$3,320.-
**
The sail was made by a Hongkong sailmaker called LEE Sails.
For those who are willing to have sails made offshore (as Mark did) there are substantial savings to be had.
I have bought several sails over the years from Dennis Lam Sails in Hong Kong and was always impressed with the quality but when I searched in 2005 the results came up fareastsails.com which is an online presence for a very large HK sailmaker, very likely Lam since it came up on a search for him. I bought the sails (Friendship Sloop) and was again very pleased so I used them again for my new NS30 sail. Again, very pleased and at around half the price of the local sailmakers who are definitely racer oriented.
They charge one price up front. In my case it was about $3200 CAD including sail logos and cummingham.
The price includes shipping.
The customs invoice comes in (as Mark said) very low with a description of “used sail”.
In the past I have had two small glitches with a gaff sail. Nothing serious but they said sail it for the summer and return it in the fall for the fix. Shipping both ways was on them and the changes were perfect.
The con is that they will make the sail exactly as you ask. You must be sure of your measurements and any custom touches you want.
Those savings are impressive, but I don’t think I’m capable of specifying a sail to the degree necessary to just mail-order it. It would be flushing money down the toilet and so not very cheap after all.
It’s not impressive at all and anyone can do it. This is what I did:
First, I gained some experience by sailing with my old sail. The boat was “new to me” and it seemed wise to know exactly what my wishes were before ordering a new sail.
My old sail fitted well and was nicely cut, but the reef positions were poor: the boom had to lift way too high to make the reefs work. The second reef was worse than the first. I figured out how I roughly wanted the reefs to be and wrote that down. That was an extra handicap for me — if your old sail is already perfect, you can simply copy the dimensions of course.
Then I measured the old sail and compared it with the dimensions from the manual. They didn’t completely match, which made sense because my mast and boom are not standard — they were replaced by carbon ones. That was another handicap: I had to rely on my own measurements. If your setup is stock, you don’t need to do that and you can use the dimensions from the manual.
I measured the leech round and mentioned it on the drawing, but next time I would just say “5%,” which is quite standard.
The sail had to fit the existing slides, so I took pictures of the situation and included them in the information package. The information about the logo I got from the INA website, and the same goes for the number of battens. The batten lengths I copied from the old sail, but I wouldn’t do that again next time.
I emailed the information package to LEE, and I’ll attach it here so you can see what information I provided.
Saildimensions - Nonsuch 36 - Mark H v1.pdf (1.3 MB)
In the email in which I sent the information package to LEE I said: >> I want to see a layout (cutting plan) before you start cutting, you are not allowed to start before I have approved the layout. And I told them I would like to know if there were any questions — and also if there were none.
Then the payment: I did it via PayPal because of the insurance and the convenience. Credit cards are not very common in the Netherlands.
A few weeks later came the email with the panel layout. They had made the sail slightly lower (the black stripe story), but I had already included that in my drawings, so I mentioned it. They had also added markings for bunt lines in the drawings and I mentioned that too. I asked for a new drawing and told them not to continue unless I had approved the new drawing. And so it happened: a new drawing came, my issues were solved, and I gave my approval.
A few weeks later came the email saying that the sail was ready and that they would ship it, asking whether I agreed with an adjusted amount on the papers. I agreed. About a week later the package arrived.
I provided all the measurements and details, but LEE designed the sail using their Sailpack software. That program determines the draft and other sailmaker-specific features.
I didn’t ask them to cut the luff for a bent mast — I definitely didn’t want that. I want the mast to do its job and flatten the sail when it bends. So the design characteristics of this sail are basically “standard,” probably similar to those of a typical sloop rig — and it works! In practice, the sail sets beautifully and I can point very high.
For the amount of money I spent with LEE, I could have drawn up two complete f*ck-ups for them to make — and still had enough left for a third, perfect sail — before reaching the same price a Dutch sailmaker quoted.