Propane Water Heater

Hello all,

Thanks so much for accepting me in the group!

As I said, I am in the process of buying the Nonsuch 30C and marine survey will be done in 2 days. I am super excited about it!!
I do want to ask is the HOT WATER ON-DEMAND PALOMA tankless in the head. The boat I am interested is has it and is it dangerous to use ? I am quite apprehended about using propane.. do you all have CO or GAS defectors near the bilge area? How to make sure there is no gas leakage…

Thanks for your comments and input! Looking forward to sail her!

Shirley

Welcome aboard, Shirley. I hope you have or will join INA where you can get most of those answers. I think that the Paloma was standard equipment when our boats were built and lots of people still have them. There have been issues with ins company’s and surveys. When I got mine 20 some odd years ago, I removed my Paloma and installed the typical engine/110 system and never regretted it.

Joe Valinoti
S/V iL Gatto NS30U #221
Sea Harbour YC
Oriental, NC USA

Shirley:

Congratulations on your new boat and your INA membership. You are both lucky and fortunate in your savvy decision.

Melita has the same water heater, which has worked well all these years. We’ve experienced no danger and no mishaps. With 4 water tanks, which have a total 160-gallon capacity, we’ve used the Paloma quite often for the galley, head, and shower.

Melita has a Xintrex propane detector, which is located in the bilge, with a solenoid connected to the propane line in the transom propane locker. The propane line not only feeds the Paloma but also the 4-burner stove/oven and the saloon space heater.

Our assessment is that the most likely point of failure would be in the propane line, not in the devices connected to the propane line. And, the most likely point of failure would be where the propane line could degrade when passing through a bulkhead, being bent into a directional turn, or at a Y junction.

So, we periodically have the propane line inspected at these points. Like you, we are highly risk-averse, but we’ve found the preventive steps taken to have been sufficient for the 26 years we’ve sailed Melita.

Richard Fried
Melita NS36 02
Marblehead, MA

Hi Shirley,
Some still have the Paloma and some have replaced them. Here is a discussion from a year or two ago that you might want to read:

I have purchased an Excel which was mentioned in that thread, but have yet to install it. I am told it is plug and play with the Paloma. It certainly looks like an easy replacement for my dead Bosch unit. But it will not allay your concern about having propane aboard.

I do have an LP control system which operates a remote solenoid control on the propane tanks and has at least one monitor in the bilge. If it detects propane it shuts off the supply. I sure hope that is true because I forgot to turn off the valves on the propane tanks the last time I was on the boat! It’s old and I don’t know if they make the brand anymore, but I’ll try and get the name the next time I’m aboard.

–Brian Godfrey
Vela, NS33, San Diego

Brian - That’s a good device design. Here’s a Fireboy version: Propane Detectors and Controls | Fireboy-Xintex

I currently have a control for turning on/off the solenoid and a separate propane alarm in the bilge, but to connect them makes a lot more sense. I was recently using the propane on my NS30U. The pressure reducer, hoses and solenoid are all less than 5 years old. When I switch the tanks, I noticed gas streaming out of one of the hose connections when I moved it, between the hose and the factory clamped-on connector. This is extremely concerning, because propane could easily be leaking out of the tank and cause an explosion. Even more reason to make sure your tanks are shut off at the tank valve and that there are no openings in your tank compartment that would allow the gas to get into the hull/bilge.

Hi Shirley,

Welcome to the group . We also have the Paloma water heater but it is in the galley behind the sink. We feel comfortable using it when needed but turn off the gas with the solenoid valve at the tank when on board. The switch is lighted and behind the stove so it’s hard to ignore. We always turn off the manual valve when sailing or leave the boat and also have forgotten to do that once of twice. When we do we turn on the bilge vent fan before going below for precaution.
All the Best,

Brian and Kathy Cayer
Spirit~Wind
N30U 419
Westbrook, Ct

Shirley, the normal location of the on demand hot water heaters in the 30C is in the head. In the Ultra’s they were usually located in a cupboard in the galley area. If the heater is located in the head the head door should be open and no one should be in the head while the heater is running.

Many marine surveyors do not like the Paloma heaters or any heater that uses a pilot light. The Excel heater does not have a pilot light and has a number of safety features that are not present on the Paloma. I have an Excel installed in the head on my 26C. I also have the original Hillerange propane oven. The Excel is probably safer than the oven. The Excel is advertised as being ventless but in a boat any propane fired water heater needs a vent. The stack has to be tall enough toe draw properly and you need a proper Charlie Noble on the outside to keep the wind from blowing the exhaust back down the chimney stack. If you don’t feel comfortable with propane I suggest you do what Joe did and remover the heater and install an engine heated tank. If the water tank runs out of hot water you can always heat a kettle on the stove. Will you be using a propane fired stove on board? If you are going to have a propane fired stove, a properly installed and operated Excel water heater I do not think will not create any increased risk. The Excel has a water flow sensor. It will not operate until the sensor detects enough water flowing. It then turns on an igniter (you can hear it clicking) only then does the propane solenoid open. It has an oxygen depletion sensor that shuts off the propane if it detects a reduction in oxygen. Any back winding in the chimney will trigger the oxygen sensor to shut of the propane. My stove does not have any of those feature. If the flame goes out the propane keeps flowing. At most the hot water heater only runs for two or three minutes. The stove might operate for 30 minutes.

If you want on demand hot water and don’t want propane you can buy (at great expense) a diesel fired cabin and hot water heater system. Here is a link to a diesel fired system https://itrheat.com/products/marin-heating-systems/hurricane-zephyr/

Hi Shirley,

There is an interesting post on the Nonsuch Discourse site about a propane system upgrade to an Excel water heater -

https://nonsuch.discourse.group/t/propane-upgrade-completed/245

Welcome aboard,
Jon Lewit
N26C #115 - Inua - Kingston, NY

Hello all,

Thanks so much for your replies!

I am based in Toronto, Canada and I am now sure what the Canadian marine insurance will require. Marine survey will be done tomorrow and so I will see what the surveyor says.

Replacing with the EXCEL is an option (no pilot light) and seems to be an easy installation…since I can just use the old Paloma lines to plug and play.

I alos thought the heat exchanger - getting heat from the engine - but this can be a very complicated affairs.

SIDE QUESTION: Somebody mentioned installing a gas defector in the bilge and will shut off the solenoid switch when it detects gas? What brand/model of this detector is ? I am more scared of blowing up the boat and a gas defector seems to be a peice of mind.

Thanks,

Shirley

Shirley,

I’m with the others in recommending replacing the Paloma with an Excel. Having done it, I can assure you it’s an easy switchover.

If you haven’t already seen it, I’d suggest downloading the International Nonsuch Association publication, Things to Know When Looking to Buy a Nonsuch from the public side of the www.Nonsuch.org website.

If/when your deal goes through, I hope you’ll consider joining the INA and that you’ll then also download the companion INA publication, The New Nonsuch Owners Quick Guide, found under MANUALS on the members-only side of the website.

There’s one paragraph from that Guide related to propane. You might ask your surveyor to check on and report back to you about it. It reads as follows:

Propane
Requirements have changed since many of our boats were built. One lingering shortfall that is frequently still found is a tee connection forking off propane lines inside the accommodations, often under the cabin sole or a quarterberth. It typically feeds the galley range and the waterheater. This must be replaced with dedicated lines for each appliance originating at a manifold inside the propane locker. These lines should exit high in the box and be sealed at the exit point.The other thing to look for is the routing of the drain under the propane locker. Many boats left the factory with a low point in this drain hose that was below the exit fitting. This must be re-done if found on your boat. It allows water to accumulate and effectively block the drain. The propane locker drain line must be set up so that there is a direct drainage flow; no point in that line should be higher than the inlet at the locker nor lower than the exit in the transom.

This is a concern that needs to be handled if found, but is straightforward to fix and should not be considered a dealbreaker.

– Bob

Hello all,

Marine survey done on my to-be purchase Nonsuch 30 classic today. Everything was fine except the Paloma hot water heater.

The surveyor said the pilot light and the vent system (it is NOT sealed to the ceiling; exchaust can get back in) will not be acceptable for any insurance company. I agree to decommission it (remove it) for insurance purpose. I am from Toronto, Canada.

However, what do I replace it with? I can replace it with EXCEL Hot water heater as there is NO pilot light but how about the vent system? Can this vent be SEALED to the deck? I mean we have to make sure NO exhaust can get back to the boat.

I also think about getting a heat exchanger to get the heat from the diesel engine. Problem is my engine is westerbeke 20 1983, original built! I am not even sure if this diesel engine can hooked up with a heat exchanger. Anybody has this set up out there?

Thanks so much for all your input and advice!

Shirley

Hi Shirley,

I had a Paloma on my 30C when I got her in 2002, insurance Co. was fine with it back then. The Paloma failed around 2010 and was replaced with an Excel which is still working very well. Take the ignition batteries out of it every fall and replace at the spring launch. Good luck !

Regards,
Alan Steward
30C #144 MagnifiCat
Loyalist Cove Marina,
Bath, Ontario

Shirley: Are you sure about that model number? I only know of W-13, 18, 21, 27 & 33s. If it’s a W-27, it can definitely run an engine/electric water heater as I did my own conversion 23 years ago. Attached is a photo of the installation
beneath the cockpit & the Westerbeke bulletins.

Joe Valinoti
S/V iL Gatto NS30U #221
Sea Harbour YC
Oriental, NC USA


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[W-27 Bulletin 114 Hot Water Htr pg1.pdf|attachment](upload://6oVmUeRDG7WvA1rllelHEy7PdUN.pdf) (724 KB)
[W-27 Bulletin 114 Hot Water Htr pg2.pdf|attachment](upload://92S6es2ilInWRAIzxBnBfY0PtAM.pdf) (453 KB)
![NS30U Calorifier 008.jpg|2288x1712](upload://8IUaXzTg8wlxbnV1JoMWKuT70yr.jpeg)

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Hi Jo

Yes, it is Westerbeke 27. I saw it on the engine. Thanks so so so much for the drawings and file ! Invaluable information !!!

Shirley

Hi Jo

Yes, it is Westerbeke 27. I saw it on the engine. Thanks so so so much for the drawings and file ! Invaluable information !!!

Shirley

Hi, my boat is a 30 Ultra, had the Paloma removed by PO, and replaced with a Isotemp 30 litre tank mounted on a plywood platform just aft of the engine. I think they had to remove the wood frame around the cockpit locker hatch to get it in. I installed two 2-way valves so I can isolate the tank from the engine if needed.
Don

Shirley,

Let me respond to both Excel and heat exchanger questions. In case the following’s more detail than you want, here’s the key point up front: either choice will work fine. Both are just a matter of having the necessary work done by someone competent and careful. Plenty of us have done one or the other. We’ve all done so without running into insurance problems and with general comfort and success.

The choice is a matter of what already has or hasn’t been done on the boat you’re buying, and how you plan to use it once it’s yours.

Any engine can be fitted with a heat exchanger. It doesn’t matter which diesel you have.

The hot water from a heat exchanger cools off within a day unless you either run the engine for an hour or hook up to shorepower within that time. Heat exchangers therefore work best for people who are uncomfortable with propane devices, day sailors who mainly need hot water while they’re out for the day or at the dock, and cruisers who are ok with running their engine daily.

On-demand heaters like the Excel work all the time. The downsides that keeps everyone from preferring them are three. They require a hole in the deck above them; if that’s not already there, some people don’t want to mess with more holes in the deck. A fume detector is desirable (or mandatory, depending on insurance company); some people don’t like the cost and effort of installing one. Finally, some people are just not comfortable with propane devices in the cabin, no matter what.

BOTTOM LINE ADVICE (IMHO)

If you already have a deck vent hole of any kind over the Paloma, you might as well go ahead with an Excel. You’ll have to do something about that deck hole, anyway, so why not go with the alternative that works in all situations?

If not, then it comes back to how you’re going to use the boat, and how you feel about the trade-offs. But, either choice will work out just fine.

– Bob

Here’s a lot more detail, in case of interest for anyone who likes details…

EXCEL SET-UP

There is absolutely no problem setting up a venting system for an Excel. It just has to be done properly. It simply requires a competent worker who will do a proper job of caulking a hole through the deck, knows how to install a water hood over the vent pipe through that hole, and knows how to insulate the hot air hood which will go over the Excel.

Without knowing exactly what your boat already has, I can’t be specific about what you need. So, I’ll go through it as if you were starting from scratch.

There needs to be a metal vent over the unit that’s sort of an upside-down funnel. These are sometimes also called “air hoods” or “heat vents”. It will have a rectangular opening at the bottom slightly bigger than the unit, narrowing to a 3” or so tube at the top. If you can’t get one from the Excel supplier, you can find one that will work from many large home heating and plumbing suppliers.

Another metal tube, at least an inch wider, will go through the deck. That tube needs to be fitted very tightly to a hole cut through the deck, and caulked very thoroughly all around to prevent water intrusion. It needs to have a top cover designed to allow air to flow out but keep water from running into the tube.

The tube at the top of the vent hood is wrapped with an insulation material, usually fiberglass, and fitted inside the larger thru-deck tube. This allows the water heater exhaust and any propane fumes carried with it, to get outside the boat without hot surfaces that could burn someone or affect the boat deck.

This may sound intimidating, but it’s a job that any marine plumbing or competent general boat repair person is perfectly capable of doing.

HEAT EXCHANGER

It doesn’t really matter what kind of engine you have. A heat exchanger will work with any engine. There’s no additional load on the engine. It’s basically just adding additional plumbing that takes advantage of what the engine already does.

As an engine runs, the heat it produces is ultimately reduced by pumping sea water through the engine cooling system that absorbs the heat. That heated sea water ends up being mixed with the engine exhaust and pumped out a fitting on your boat’s transom.

All an engine-driven heat exchanger does is take advantage of that stream of heated water as it passes by. It diverts the hot sea water so that it runs through pipes in tank full of fresh water. That heats up the fresh water, which is stored in a hot water tank for when you want to use it. The now somewhat-cooler sea water continues on to get mixed with the engine exhaust and sent overboard exactly as before.

Heat exchanger water heaters often come with an additional electrical option. When plugged into shorepower, they can also heat the water in the tank just as an electric water heater in your home would.

It all depends how you choose to set up the heat exchanger. In all cases, it has to be plumbed into your water system. If you want shorepower-supplied hot water, it also has to be wired into the electrical system. If you want engine-driven hot water, it has to be plumbed into the engine exhaust system. You can purchase and set up heat exchangers to do one, the other, or both.

TRADE-OFFS BETWEEN AN EXCEL VS. A HEAT EXCHANGER

The Excel heater, like the Paloma it replaces, heats the water just before its delivered through the faucet. It therefore doesn’t need a hot water tank.

With a heat exchanger, the water in the hot water tank cools off if it’s been too long since the engine was run or shorepower was attached. In contrast, an on-demand heater like the Excel will always give you hot water (as long as you have propane). That’s why owners who sail a lot and spend time anchored or moored prefer them.

If you choose to set up an Excel, there’s no situation where you need a head exchanger.

If you choose a heat exchanger instead, you avoid the hassle of vent installation. However, the hot water tanks that they require cool off at about 2 degrees F per hour, so you lose hot water unless you run the engine or plug into shore power every day.

– Bob

To add a bit to the trade-offs, the risks:

Propane risks are obvious. Boom! Mitigation would include quality installation and installation of a monitor/shutoff system if one is not already installed. These are both relatively easy and inexpensive. (Relatively. These are boat bucks we’re talking about here.) A huge number of boats (Nonsuch and otherwise) use propane and while there are occasional problems, the vast majority never experience them.

Heat exchanger risks are less obvious, but I can think of two. One is that leaks or a burst pipe at the wrong time could deprive your engine of cooling. Mitigation would include a quality installation and regular inspections. Another risk is that of a cracked or burst tank. I have experienced a cracked tank which, due to the low water pressures involved, went undetected for a long time. This was on a rental boat in France and we discovered and reported the problem because one morning we found mushrooms sprouting next to the bed! It was a nice boat, not some rotting hulk, so this was rather surprising. And they weren’t even edible mushrooms. :zany_face: I do not know how to mitigate this problem, though I expect that a very secure mounting would be an important start. Final risk is that an electric version might draw a lot of power and will require more careful management when at the dock.

Hi Joe,

Your photos and graphs are immensely valuable! Thanks for sharing with me!

Thanks,

Shirley