Ahoy Nonsuch 36 Owners
I have been having a problem for a long time raising my sail. As of now I have a new Ullman Full Batten tri radial sail and a 15 year old Tides Marine Strong track and a new 12 mm halyard and a new Harken 46 electric winch. Previously before all problems I had a Harken 48 but that is discontinued. All shives and blocks were replaced within 18 months. The sail goes up about three quarters of the way and then the breaker trips when the winch is lifting the heaviest part of the sail. We put it on slow speed after the breaker trips or if the winch seems to be straining. I bought a Milwaukee right angle drill but Harken did not think that was a good idea. ie Using the drill to raise the sail when the winch starts to strain using only the drill and not the electric winch for raising the last third or quarter of the sail.
What are you all doing to get your sail up? Do you use the Barient winch on the cabin top with a drill or an electric winch on the coaming or the cabin top?
Have you had similar problems to what I described and how did you solve them?
I am very frustrated. Thanks to all.
Phil LeVine, MeSays, Nonsuch 36, San Pedro, CA
PS The sail falls well so I do not think that the track needs replacement. Mike Quill said I should check the track carefully.
I’m using the cast bronze slides and can usually hoist my sail about 2/3rds of the way up manually before using the Milwaukee drill in the old Barient 28 - that finishes the job with ease.
Leon
Cloud Nine, NS 36, #16
Lewisporte, Newfoundland
I assume you have eased the choker?? Also, I pour a little soapy water on my track which does make a difference.
Joe Valinoti
S/V iL Gatto NS30U #221
Sea Harbour YC
Oriental, NC USA
Phil,
Although your sail is much bigger than mine, I do have an electric halyard winch but it is a capstan style Maxwell Nillson winch that was installed back in the 80’s. I spent some time last year refurbishing it including new electrical wires. So, for your situation, I wonder…
- Are the wires the correct gauge? I found mine were undersize, and replaced them.
- Maybe the breaker is undersized? I think mine is 100 or 120 amps.
- If sail is about ¾ up when the breaker blows, this would be close to the spot where the reef lines are under some tension. Could it be the reef tack line is not running free?
- Perhaps this new winch is simply underpowered for the load of the sail?
- You could try to divert the halyard to another winch and raise the sail using the Milwaukee drill to see if it can pull the sail all the way up? If so, then that would indicate the electric winch is the problem.
Cheers,
Don
’87 NS30U #369 - Breezin’
Vancouver, BC
You circuit breaker is “thermal responsive”. It is tripping because a bi-metal element inside of it is heating up. These elements are usually designed with a time factor and don’t actually blow based solely on current. Current just slightly over the rating will heat up the element more slowly and current way over the rating will heat up the element more quickly.
-
It might be heating up gradually because the motor is in-spec but is drawing more current than the circuit breaker is rated for - possibly something is spec’d wrong in the circuit or possibly the motor is tired or defective. Check to make sure the wire size and circuit breaker amperage are appropriate for the motor. Don’t just increase the circuit breaker size without being certain that the wire size can handle the current or you could have a fire.
-
That little element inside of the breaker might be heating up because the motor is not getting adequate voltage and so draws excess current to make up for it. The motor is being asked to deliver a lot of power to the winch and power equals volts times amps. So if the volts go low, more amps are drawn. Measure the voltage at the motor both while pulling up the sail initially and watch it as it goes up close to where it pops the breaker. (Don’t actually pop the breaker if you can avoid it, though. See #4.)
Voltage drops can be caused by too small of wire in the cabling or by bad connections somewhere along the way. It can also be possible that the battery voltage drops when too much current is drawn from it. So if you see under-voltage at the motor, be sure to check it directly on the battery to eliminate bad connections. -
You might be asking the motor to produce more power than it is designed for. This could be because it is under-powered for the weight of the sail or it might be occurring because something is binding when it is part way up. Downsizing the winch might have been the wrong plan, but that’s not certain. If Harken recommended this winch based on your boat size, that might be a concern. Your sail size is probably more commonly seen on sloops in the 50’ or so range. I know that my “little” (compared to yours) 670 SF sail is the same as the mainsail on one of the 52’ Beneteau models. It could be that you hit a bad spot in the track that raises the power demand just enough to overheat the breaker, but which does not inhibit the sail from dropping.
-
But that little element might be heating up too much because the circuit breaker itself is wearing out. I have experienced this in home breakers and I currently have one breaker in my boat that trips at very low current. Breakers are mechanical parts and they crap out. Especially if you pop them a lot. So it might be helpful to put an ammeter around the cable and watch the amps as you raise the sail. If they do not come up to the rating of the breaker when it pops, then you have a bad breaker. (I put this one last because it would be the best outcome, but is probably the least likely.)
Note that it doesn’t matter where you measure the current. The same current flows in one end of the cable as flows out the other end (unless you’ve got a short somewhere.) But it does matter where you measure voltage. The voltage at the motor end of the cables is what counts. But measuring both ends of the cable might show up a large voltage drop which is also indicative of high current.
Good luck. I hope I didn’t forget anything. We had a long and extremely brisk sail today - doing over 7kts (GPS) for about 40% of the time and hitting 8kts a few times - and I’m really tired!
Wow, well said Brian! I might add that Blue Sea has a chart on its website that tells you correct wire size for different applications. They have another one for fuse and breaker ratings too.
Don
Thanks. Yeah, I just went and looked that up and it is a handy tool. Be sure and fill in the Time box at the bottom, even though it is optional. It takes some time to raise our sails though I don’t know how long it should take on a 36. I plugged in a variety of combinations of load and cable length and found that sometimes the Time input does change the recommendation.
Make sure your sail slides are lashed tightly to the sail. I had an issue last year with the sail binding on hoisting and dropping after having some work done on it by a sail loft. The lashings were too loose causing the slides to bind.
Mike
BIANKA
1986 30U
Long Island
Don has a very good point about the reefing lines. They have to run perfectly fair otherwise they will load down that windless to the point where it trips. My 40 year old Simpson/Lawrence still works fine and it’s original.
Joe Valinoti
S/V iL Gatto NS30U #221
Sea Harbour YC
Oriental, NC USA
Phil,
Although your sail is much bigger than mine, I do have an electric halyard winch but it is a capstan style Maxwell Nillson winch that was installed back in the 80’s. I spent some time last year refurbishing it including new electrical wires. So, for your situation, I wonder…
Phil,
Although your sail is much bigger than mine, I do have an electric halyard winch but it is a capstan style Maxwell Nillson winch that was installed back in the 80’s. I spent some time last year refurbishing it including new electrical wires. So, for your situation, I wonder…
Phil,
Although your sail is much bigger than mine, I do have an electric halyard winch but it is a capstan style Maxwell Nillson winch that was installed back in the 80’s. I spent some time last year refurbishing it including new electrical wires. So, for your situation, I wonder…
what are people using to lubricate the main sail track?
Chuck Mitchell
NS33 #60
Cape Cod MA
I pour a cup of water and dish detergent down the tract at the top of the flaked sail prior to raising. It never builds up or is there long enough to attract dirt.
Joe Valinoti
S/V iL Gatto NS30U #221
Sea Harbour YC
Oriental, NC USA