I have tried four times to reply to the kind messages you recently sent me, but all my messages are deleted. I will try with a new discussion to share that photo. Thanks for all the help.
What is your question or problem. What I’m looking at in your photo is a Tides Strong Track.
Joe Valinoti
S/V iL Gatto NS30U #221
Sea Harbour YC
Oriental, NC USA
PS – I don’t see your name anywhere
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[/details]Hi,
It appears to me, too, that your previous thread has disappeared. (I don’t think that’s supposed to happen.)
So, I understand why you’re posting this to renew your request for help from the group with the mast track that you were trying to identify.
I’m a partial source of your confusion, because I posted in the previous thread that the picture you’d had up before didn’t look like the way I was used to seeing Tides tracks installed.
This picture makes it clear that what you have is indeed a Tides track. I notice what appears to be caulking on the upper left side of the section in the picture. Along with the fastener in the picture I recall seeing in the previous (now missing) thread, this makes me wonder if your track is directly fastened to the mast.
Of course, it may also be simply that the one fastener in the previous picture is there to keep the the Tides track in place so that it doesn’t slide back down the track underneath.
I’m used to seeing Tides tracks installed by sliding them up on top of a pre-existing track. If there’s only one fastener going into the mast, that’s likely what’s going on. If there’s a series of fasteners going up the mast, then you have a more complicated problem.
You may still want to check with both Mike Quill for any knowledge he has about the installation history, as well as with the Tides people to see if they have records.
– Bob
Me Gusta
Nonsuch e26U #233
Marina del Rey, California
I agree with Bob that you have a a Tides Marine Strong Track. The end cap that is usually on the bottom does not appear to be there so unfortunately you won’t be able to get a serial number there.
The bronze slides are not standard but are worth their weight in gold. Do not loose those. If you get a new strong track and decide to use their stainless slides keep the bronze slides. The way they are attached to the sail it is a simple process to remove and install the slides. A pin goes up through the slide and through a loop in the webbing and then out the other side of the slide. A a locking ring then holds the pin in place. The Strong track uses the same system.
I beehive the carbon masts have a metal (stainless ?) sail track screwed to the mast and then a Strong Track slides over the stainless track. Here is a link to some photos on the Nonsuch Photo Gallery showing repairs to a carbon mast. https://pbase.com/nonsuch/service_repair_sail_track_36
We have a couple of other 260’s in our area and we might be able to get some information from one of them.
As Bob suggests there is a good chance that the Tides Marine people will be able to give you information on the track you need. You will have to talk to them to see if they will include slides in the cost of the track or if you have to buy them separately. If they are part of the deal, count the number of slides on your current sail and order at least two extra in case your next sail maker wants extra slides. Also order 4 batten slides incase you decide to go for full length battens in the future.
Mark Powers
I am contacting Tides Marine to see if they have a record of the original track, so I know what length to order.
Mr. Powers, should I understand from your message that I cannot use the brass slides in the new track I want to install?
If the bronze slides have worked okay so far I don’t see a reason to change them out.
Mark Powers
Those bronze slides are now $34.11 USD each if you buy them new, so yes – you definitely can and should keep and reuse them.
On a Tides system where they’re running against low friction plastic, I can’t think of any reason why they should ever wear out.
– Bob
Me Gusta
Nonsuch e26U #233
Marina del Rey, California
Looking again at your pictures, one small suggestion for when you reinstall the slides next time – you might want to install the pins with their heads up and the cotter rings down.
That way, if a cotter ring works loose (which they’ve been known to do, the pesky little buggers), gravity will tend to keep the pin at least partially in place.
– Bob
Me Gusta
Nonsuch e26u #233
Marina del Rey, California
If Tide Marine does not have the length you can measure your existing track. Tie a tape measure and a retrieval line to your halyard. The tape needs to be 50’ long. Pull the tape up the mast until it is level with the top of the strong track and note the length at the bottom of the tack. The hoist(luff) of the sail for the 260 is the same as on the 26. I suspect the track for the 260 will be the same but I can’t guarantee it. The track for the 26 was a ST-100-EX-0875 EXT 7/8”. They shipped 42’ and I had to cut a short amount off of the top. You want the top high enough that you can’t hoist the headboard above the track but low enough that it does not chafe the halyard as the sail swings from one tack to the other.
Mark Powers
Hi Richard,
This is Brian with the blue 260; we visited with you in Fisherman Bay maybe three years ago. I have a new-ish Tides StrongTrack. There’s was an issue with the way ours was installed which caused problems; I assume it was factory installed, so yours is probably the same. The track was bolted directly onto the mast, and the bolts would come loose and then stop the sail from being raised, and in one instance, stopped it from coming down (that was an interesting day!). The proper way to install it is to have Tides supply short pieces of traditional sail track that the Strong Track then slides onto. They can help with getting the right number of pieces. And our bronze slides worked fine. Another issue was making sure tension aft on each slide (from the pull of the wishbone) was fairly equal so that the force is spread across all the attachment points; our new sail was mis-cut at the bottom and started to pull out a couple of the little sail track pieces.
If you’d like to give me a call to discuss further, here’s my number is secret code… two O six, three nine O- six 8 two 4.
Hope all is well on Lopez,
Brian & Susan Berdan
Blue September
Bainbridge Island, Washington
260 #007
Thanks for responding to us, Brian. You were my next step.
I am waiting for Seaview North to be done with our boat to bring it home, but I am in a quandary about replacing that track: that implies dementing looks like, and that is not possible on Lopez. Did you have it done from a bosun chair, or did you demast?
As for the instrument change over, we would have liked to go your MFD way, but we cheated out and just have a Raymarine i40 put in with a new transducer, as the wheel was broken on the old one.
You might want to contact Composite Engineering to see what their recommendations are for attaching the strong track. I believe they were the maker of the mast and booms for the 260.
Carbon fibre is very noble on the galvanic scale. In the salt water environment you have to be careful about what metals you put in contact with it. It should be 316 stainless or Monel. Definitely not aluminium.
Theoretically you could replace the track from a chair but it would be a lot of work. If you are going to put on a stainless track and slide the tide strong track over that the work gets even more involved. Realistically it would be better to do the work with the mast down.
You will also have to decide if you use screws or blind (pop) rivets to attach the track to the mast.
Your first step when the boat is back is to determine if the current track is attached directly to the mast or if there is a stainless track underneath. Talk to Composite Engineering to obtain their advice. You might want to refer them to the material on the repairs to the carbon mast on the 36 that I mentioned in an earlier post to this thread. It also makes sense to discuss this with Mike Quill. Armed with that information you can then decide how you are going to attach the new track. That will help you decide if the work can be done with the mast up or down.
Don’t forget the masts should be taken down every few years for a complete inspection so pulling the mast to replace the tract will be part of that process.
Mark Powers
It has been an adventure.
Two months into the sailboat being in the yard in Bellingham. Lots of “interesting” news.
- The mast cannot be used in any way with the track in the state it is in. The tide track should have been replaced years ago for sun damage, being 30 years old
it was installed incorrectly at the factory, simply screwed into the carbon fiber mast. - A new track system must be put in. Filling all the holes in the mast correctly and putting in a track to support a Tides track was quoted as at least $15,000. The yard has now agreed to let me do some of the work.
- Propspeed cost went way up; with prep, almost $700
- The bottom paint package did not include the extra prep work they wished to do, and it raised the price by $1000.
- With all the online workers and other upper class folks moving to our island, the m marina upgraded some of the docks and now doubled moorage costs.
At this time, my spouse wants to sell the boat once it is fixed. I doubt she will change her mind. So, some advice here on selling, especially since I have very little knowledge of boats and sailboats (the 260 was our first real sailboat; our first was a West Wight Potter). Do I get a survey? How do I figure out the price? For example, the exterior looks average, but the interior is hardly used, the Yanmar has less than 100 hours, the Bimini was never used, but the sail passed inspection and repairs at North Sails but is is older. So, it is a mixed bag. Is it easier to sell in a yard or at the dock?
Thanks again for all the great advice.
I really feel for your situation, Richard.
Before you take the final step of selling, if you haven’t already done so, I’d suggest talking to Mike Quill and Tides Marine about whether a new Tides track can be installed exactly as the original was done and simply reusing the existing holes in the mast.
I’m not an authority on this, which is why I’m suggesting talking to the experts. However, it sounds like the way your current track was installed, even if technically “incorrect”, served adequately for quite some length of time. If so, then it might be both viable and much cheaper to continue with that method of installation. If the experts agree that this is so, you might still have to remove the mast. On the other hand, you might even be able to get by with a rigger going up the mast and unscrewing the bolts holding the track. Installing a new one would require getting its bolt holes properly spaced, but might also be doable by a rigger.
Even if pulling the mast turns out to be necessary (and it would certainly make the rest of the work easier), reinstalling a new Tides track without adding a track underneath it would eliminate the highly skilled labor for hole filling and steel track installation. I know that Brian Berdan’s posted about his problems with bolts loosening, but it might be that Quill and/or Tides could provide advice about how to avoid this.
In addition to running this by the experts, I’d also suggest shopping around for other yards. I’m not familiar with your area, much less the Bellingham yard, but the estimates you’re describing having been given sound a bit high to me.
I don’t know if you’ve committed to the Propspeed work yet or not. If not, you might consider forgoing it. My impression of the literature is that there’s some controversy about how well these treatments work and how long they last. IMHO, it’s a luxury expense rather than a necessity, and one that a sailor on a budget could very well skip.
You have my deepest sympathies about prices being driven up in your area. I’ve spent my time in another such area and have spent the last 40-something years watching the middle class boaters getting driven out. If it’s any consolation, the upper classes now driving folks out of your area will soon find they can’t get any services, since the labor force that would provide those services is getting driven out as well.
I’d strongly suggest working with the regional Nonsuch association in your area to see about broadcasting a request to all their members for recommendations about alternative harbors, boatyards and workmen.
If you have no choice but to sell, they should also be able to provide recommendations about surveyors and brokers in your area. Given your questions about how to proceed on selling, I’d suggest using a well-recommended broker over selling it yourself. If you don’t get good recommendations about a local broker, you might contact Dave Harris at Harris & Ellis Yachts (https://www.harrisellis.com). Although they serve the Canadian Great Lakes area rather than yours, Dave may have recommendations about colleagues in your area.
– Bob
Me Gusta
Nonsuch e26U #233
Marina del Rey, California
Well said, Mr. Neches!! I certainly concur on all points.
Joe Valinoti
S/V iL Gatto NS30U #221
Sea Harbour YC
Oriental, NC USA
R.
Don’t rush into anything. We have some members that maybe able to recommend riggers, repair yards and if it comes to it brokers in the area. Give me a few days to make inquiries. In the meantime do talk to Mike Quill and The people at Composite Engineering. They are the ones who will know the proper solution. When we have that we can then find the best people in the area to carry the repairs.
Mark Powers
Nonsuch Niagara North West
Hello all.
To answer some of the questions and clarify some of the points, here is one more entry.
I had contacted Mr. Quill and he has been of great help. I have contacted him and he had excellent expert insights. The folks at Tides Marine also were of great help and explained the replacement process. Finally, since this is a 260 and there appears to be only nine of them, specific help is crucial; Brent Berdan (who has a 260) has been in contact and as soon as I am off volunteer ambulance duty today, I will call him. He has replaced the track on his mast so he has first hand experience. Yes, according to everyone to whom I spoke, the factory messed up by simply screwing the Tides track to the mast. It will mean that up to 200 holes must be filled before installing a new track.
Most of all, many thanks for the solid advice throughout the forum and on the site; for example, the list of lines, their lengths, and their size is invaluable when you have to order everything online.
On a positive side, the yard where my boat is resting has come forward with some help. By the time most of you wrote back, the mast had already been removed so a Tides expert could look at it. They are allowing me to do most of the work; a professional who is on site for work on a Pocket will be there to instruct and check my work. I did build a home and buildings from scratch (I even milled the wood) so I am capable of learning some skills. My son lives within a reasonable distance so I have a place to stay. Yay! The way the ferries are packed with tourists, I cannot count on being able to get home every night; in fact, every sailing is sold out this week after 8:00 AM.
When it comes to selling Berceuse, we will see how my spouse feels when the final bill is in. I intend to replace all the old lines while the mast is down (main, reefs, halyard, etc.) and maybe get permission to buff the hull. Hopefully the sail home from Bellingham will soothe the souls. I will see about getting a survey while the boat is in the yard.
As for the cost of moorage, Bob is dead on about service folks being driven out; when I retired last year, many of the areas I teach could not be covered as even teachers are priced out of our islands. I know students who were two full-time jobs in the summer and still, some restaurants and businesses have to cut their hours for lack of workers. Meanwhile request for services are jumping; one day this summer, we had four airlifts on just on of my ambulance shifts and we are very short on volunteers firefighters and EMTs; people love to move here but they rarely give their time away.
Before we talk, Richard, I just wanted anyone else who has the wrongly-installed Tides track to know that I did not have to fill in all the old holes. In fact, I am very careful not to add new holes to the carbon fiber mast- mine broke in half in its first year of use! (Composite Engineering repaired it and no problems since). With the new Tides track, I ordered the 1-2” long sail track pieces that they sell for this type of installation. Get enough for every existing hole. Since many of my holes had become stripped, I re-drilled and tapped the holes to the next size up machine screw, carefully using a tap in a variable speed drill. Added a little sealant on each screw when installing these track pieces. The process was very quick. Let the Tides track warm in the sun so it can be straightened easily, and slide it onto the mast.
The reason not to attach it directly to the mast is two-fold. One, floating freely on the track pieces allows for thermal expansion. Second, the track prevents the screws from backing out and jamming the sail slides.
Brian Berdan
Blue September, 260 #7
Bainbridge Island, Washington
Here is an update for those who may be interested. I suggest to Nonsuch 260 owner to take a peek.
After extensive discussion with Brian Berdan (Owner of Blue September), the local rigger, and the track/carbon fiber expert at Tides Marine, I have decided to replace the old Tide Sailtrack, which was epoxied and screwed directly into the mast; I will use Schaefer stainless steel track to support the new Tides Sailtrack. The way that the track was attached at the factory, according to the rigger and Tides gentleman, was not appropriate; they both felt that for many reasons, this could have been disastrous due to lack of fasteners, improper fastening, and many other reasons. In fact, the folks at Tides were amazed that my current setup lasted 30 years.
This means that I have to redial the old holes prior to filling them with epoxy mixed with fibers, remove the old epoxy, paint where the carbon fiber became exposed, drill and tap new holes for the new Schaefer track, install it and then slip the Tides track on. The boatyard where this is happening is supposed to charge $20/day for mast storage and $52/day for our sailboat while we wait for the parts, but the manager will plead my case with the owner, especially since this was not caught when the boat was launched there three years ago.
I should get a bill for the work performed so far; I am afraid we will get hit pretty hard by the rigger, who appears to usually work with much bigger and more expensive sailboats; he is very popular around here, it seems,; I understand that he works 14 hour days, even through the Labor Day weekend. He also seems to be not overly impressed with the use of carbon fiber on the Nonsuches, saying it is definitely high performance but also high maintenance.
I was told that I could simply used the clips system to hold the Tides Sailtrack, but that was not recommended and since we may sell the boat, I wanted to make sure that it was completely safe for a new owner.
A final barely related note: do many of you get the comment: “How much longer do you expect to sail?” I have been asked this three times in the last two days. I am turning 66 in two weeks, but I feel that I am in very good shape and do not look feeble. I am totally new to sailing, so I wonder: do most folks hang it at 65? We purchased our Nonsuch for retirement, but were we foolish? It seems like many of you are in our age bracket and enjoy sailing, and we chose the Nonsuch for its ease of use, quality, and the helpful community of owners. Before you assume something about us, please know that we still cut and split two or three cords of wood a year, I am an active volunteer firefighter, and we walk 3 miles a day, so although I am so bald I can feel rain coming two hours before it falls, I don’t walk around looking exhausted. I am not begging the obvious here, but I may need a reality check.
I know nothing about carbon, but would it be feasible to overlap the whole pathway of the old track with a new strip of carbon?
Other than that idea, I’d say do a professional job and keep on sailing for many years to come!
Ed Cook
Chat-eau, N26c #173
Middle River, MD