Hi all,
I recently went to hoist my sail on a calm day but met with resistance - having looked up to confirm no lines were caught I went forward and saw this at the mast:
I'm sorry, Pete, but I think you've got to pull that rig and sort out the large amount of corrosion under the track. Find a good yard or rigger. It seems to me that the band also has corrosion problems. After that's cleaned up, you can probably re-attach the stainless track and then add the Tides Track. If you plan to do this yourself, make sure you read up on adhering stainless to aluminum.
Joe Valinoti
S/V iL Gatto NS30U #221
Sea Harbour YC
Oriental, NC USA
~~~~~(\_ ~(\_ ~(\_~~~~~~~~~~
Morning - Having replaced the bottom 8 ft of my mast Ive had to deal with the track and the mounting - aluminum strip. Jules Verne is. # 428. So our tracks are probably the same. It’s 7/8 inch. And available in 6 ft sections in multiple places. Making a smooth transitions between old and new has been a challenge. I had to make a new mounting strip Finding an aluminum Strip I could bend to fit the mast didn’t happen I used a 1.5 in 1/4 thick strip to mount the track to. I taped the mast along side the new strip. Filled the void with Epoxy thickened with bonding agent let it harden removed it Isolated it and and remounted it with straps (also isolated ) Before Mounting it I drilled and Tapped the holes for the track. We’ll see how it works this year (My season is Jan - April )
Your mounting Plate/Strip looks like it is usable. If you release the straps You should be able to create enough space behind it to drill and tap it (Bottoming Tap)
I would look carefully at the old mounting holes to see why the track pulled free. I would carefully check the rest of your track. Pay close attention to the new joint between old and new tracks. It took me several attempts to get it so slides moved over it smoothly.
Hope this helps
N30u. Jules Verne. 428.
Abacos. Bahamas
Steve Foose. Pittsfield Ma.
We have a Tides track on our 30 replacing an old Tides track that had failed because of the effects of the sun over many years. Highly recommended piece of kit and the folks at the company are very helpful. Don’t know the exact height but the photo should help.
This has all the signs of sailing with first reef being improperly set!!!!
Safe Sailing
Cedric - Single Malt
26C # 207
Chester -- Novaa Scotia
Looking at your photo again, I don’t see any reason why you could not reattach this section with one size larger machine screws. Would need to drill slightly larger holes in the track and then drill (make sure with the right size bit) and tap the mast. Use Loctite or similar for final assembly.
Peter,
I want to echo and underline Joe Valinoti’s concerns. I’ve added some annotations to your picture to help explain it further.
Joe’s point is that the mast track section (which is stainless steel 7/8ths inch wide) and the spacer to which it’s attached are not the only concern. The spacer is held to the mast itself by straps at several points (only one of which appears in this picture). There are clear signs of corrosion around that strap. You need to inspect the mast underneath all of those straps to find out how serious that corrosion is.
Serious corrosion at the straps is a threat to the integrity of the mast. I’m not saying that you have serious corrosion, but it’s very important to check. I’d strongly suggest that you take advantage of the INA Membership free consulting arrangement with Mike Quill (the original Nonsuch rigger) to have him review pictures of whatever you see underneath those straps.
Any corrosion problems are remediable, with the steps involved dependent on the degree of corrosion. Again, that’s what Mike Quill’s advice is so valuable for.
When the straps are replaced after that check (and any remedial work which that check might indicate as necessary), it’s crucial that there be some insulating material, e.g., a weather-resistant rubber strip, between the straps and the mast to prevent further corrosion. And, to be clear, by “replaced” I’d advise installing new rather than putting back the old ones – I’m very cautious about reusing any component that participated in a corrosion problem.
You should inspect between the spacer and the mast to make sure there’s no corrosion there, just out of due diligence – I don’t spot anything worrisome there in this picture.
The spacer is separate from the mast, so corrosion at the bolt holes on the spacer is less of a worry. The corrosion needs to be removed and the holes re-tapped to hold short machine screws to attach the track, probably needing the next size up. Make sure that the replacement screws are coated with a corrosion blocker so you don’t have the problem again. Whether you can re-use the track or have to splice in a new section may depends on how badly bent it is and whether the kinks can be removed.
In my understanding, what tends to cause track pull-outs like this is a combination of the corrosion with over-tightening the choker when the sail halyard is not tight.
Anytime you tighten the choker, it’s pulling on the sail, which in turn is pulling on the sail track slides.
When the sail’s up and tight, the strain on the track from that is distributed across a wider area. Otherwise, it’s restricted to the area at the bottom, which is why you see the track pulling out there.
I don’t think you can overtighten the choker when the halyard’s tight without major mechanical assistance. The risk is when all the stress gets concentrated on a small section of the track.
This strain can happen if the choker’s overtightened at any time the halyard’s not tight – when the sail’s up, reefed, or dropped. Whaling away on the choker to make things look tight and shipshape when putting on the sailcover at the dock can be enough to do it (in addition to stretching the sail). It’s ok to tighten the choker a bit, just don’t get carried away.
All of the above was learned in the process of having the same problem and making the same repairs on my first Nonsuch. Been there and done that myself. So, you’ve got my sympathies.
– Bob
Me Gusta
Nonsuch e26U #233
Hi everyone,
Thank you for all coming back to me with your thoughts and recommendations. Plenty to go on there.
Bob - the detail you provided is particularly useful as this is my first such rig and therefore my knowledge and understanding of its peculiarities are limited.
Most useful was your suggested cause of the fault - the choker. On my last cruise I spent a couple of hours at anchor and it was quite rolly so I tightened the choker to reduce the amount of banging of the boom against the mast whilst the sail was down! Furthermore, because this seemed to work I also tightened the choler to reduce the chance of such banging when returned to my pontoon mooring - from what you say, this and the obvious corrosion of the screw holes on the track spacer will have been its undoing. I guess some lessons have to be learnt the hard way.
Where I am based I don’t have the option of removing the mast to work on it. Should I be able to remove the remaining machine screws securing the track to the spacer (leaving the rest of the track above the spacer secured to the mast (by rivets I think - I’m away from home at the moment so can’t check) then remove the spacer to clean and re-tap it on the bench and at the same time drill out a new section of track to match before fitting it all back together along with new securing straps? Isn’t just rubber behind the spacer or is some sort of sealant/adhesive used? What looks like corrosion at the band and sides of the spacer in the photo looks like old sealant when seen on the boat.
I’ll not do anything yet until I fully understand what I have to do. Thanks again everyone.
Pete
Merlin of Mersea
30U #489
Burnham-on-Sea, United Kingdom
I should have mentioned that any time you are putting stainless fasteners into aluminum you should put a bit of Tef-Gel (or similar) on the threads first. It provides a galvanic barrier between the materials. One tube lasts for years (decades) because you only use a tiny amount for each fastener.
One other thing to remember, Pete, always tension the halyard before tensioning the clew to prevent track/slug problems. Tef-Gell, as mentioned, is a great product and very effective.
Joe Valinoti
S/V iL Gatto NS30U #221
Sea Harbour YC
Oriental, NC USA
Hi Joe,
Whenever I reef I always ease the halyard whilst taking in the tack line then tension the halyard then tension the clew. I’ve recently been using third reef in higher winds (using the deck organisers and clews that first reef use - first reef lines stowed in a pocket in the sail bag).
I’ll see if I can get some Tef-Gell over here.
Thanks,
Pete
Your track and the aluminum look like they have a lot of corrosion. This made it weaker but why the bottom of the track pulled off like may be a different story.
The tack of the sail has to be pulled up close to the mast or when you put on the choker you have all the strain on the bottom sail slide on this lowest section of track. This happens when you reef the sail but have not run the reef lines correctly. The reef cringle must be beside the reefed sail when tight, not on top of the sail.
This is a common problem with the lower mast track. Some people put a short dogbone with a block through the reef cringle, I follow Bott’s advice and run the line in between the mast and sail and attach it on the same side as the block. There is far les strain on the lower slide this way.
Tom
26 C #28
Penetang
Pete,
Replying to some of your questions, although I strongly suggest checking my answers with Mike Quill. (Log on to www.Nonsuch.org with your membership email and password, open the MEMBERS tab, select MAINTENANCE, and look for the line which reads, “Submit mast and rigging questions by clicking here.”)
His services are free to INA members because the Association has him on retainer. You might as well help the INA get its money’s worth out of him by taking advantage of it. Quill was the original rigger for the Hinterhoeller factory and often even has records specific to your boat.
Where I am based I don’t have the option of removing the mast to work on it.
You should be able to do the work on the spacer and track with the mast in the boat.
Should I be able to remove the remaining machine screws securing the track to the spacer (leaving the rest of the track above the spacer secured to the mast … then remove the spacer to clean and re-tap it on the bench and at the same time drill out a new section of track to match before fitting it all back together along with new securing straps?
I think you could, but you can probably do the drilling and re-tapping with the spacer in place. The holes are at fixed, standard intervals, so the hard part is matching up where you’d cut the track. If you’re confident that the pictures overstate the risk of mast corrosion, I’d suggest leaving the spacer in place; see next point.
Is [it] just rubber behind the spacer or is some sort of sealant/adhesive used?
I don’t know what was used as corrosion protection between the spacer and the mast and how hard it would make the spacer to remove. Again, Mike Quill’s advice would be the best here.
What looks like corrosion at the band and sides of the spacer in the photo looks like old sealant when seen on the boat.
That would be the best possibility, and you’re in the best position to judge. As I said, I don’t know what’s between the spacer and the mast; I left that alone on my boat. As for the band(s), I believe what’s usually used would be a rubber or silicone tape between them and the mast.
– Bob
Me Gusta
Nonsuch e26U #233
Marina del Rey, California
According to Klacko Spars, maker of our aluminum masts, that spacer is attached with carpet tape. Or maybe something resembling carpet tape; it’s been a year since a very complex phone call. 
It’s an unusual setup, to say the least. No holes are allowed in the mast in that region. But you need to attach the sail track somehow. And something needs to resist the upwards force from the tack of the sail. I think there have been a number of things tried, but I think most of our boats have a fairlead collar that presses up against the bottom of that aluminum “spacer” bar and a connecting bar up to the tack collar. Others have a couple of screws into that spacer just above the tack collar so it won’t slide up. Both methods of holding the tack collar down require that the spacer does not slide upwards. Sikaflex or 5200 would work, but probably too well: you’d never be able to get it off it you needed to. Tape alone would come undone pretty quickly, but with those band clamps holding pressure on it, the tape resists the lateral and up/down forces from the sail and the tack.
You should be able to work a knife or wire behind it to remove it. A heat gun might be helpful to soften the adhesive, but be careful you don’t peel the paint off of your mast.
You don’t need to remove the mast to work on the spacer, though it would certainly be more convenient. A stool will probably be helpful unless you are really tall. And knee pads. You’ll be saving a bunch of money not pulling the mast. Put a little bit of it into good quality knee pads.
A helper can be handy when putting it all back together again, but it would be best if they help you take it apart, too. That way you won’t have to explain everything to them and they’ll help with the things you forget.
While you have it apart, inspect beneath the tack collar for corrosion, clean well to remove salt which creeps behind the padding, and replace the neoprene padding with new material regardless how it looks. I had a lot of trouble on my mast because the PO did not replace that padding even though it was clearly disintegrating and corrosion was becoming apparent. I think I used 1mm neoprene, but I’m not 100% certain of that.
I only get a random subset of the messages posted to this group. Some Google weirdness, apparently. Anyway, I went to the group page in my browser and looked through the messages. Now I have a few other comments, in no particular order.
You may be able to drill and re-tap the track and spacer in place, but you risk drilling into your mast and that would be bad. You could use a drill stop and bottom taps to be safer, but you’d still be drilling even more holes in your sail track. And I don’t know, but I wouldn’t be surprised if the holes in the sail track are somehow chamfered so that the mounting screws don’t stick up and block your sail slides. If the holes in the sail track are in good shape (I can’t tell from the picture) and the threaded holes in the aluminum spacer are stripped, then you might try measuring to see if turning the spacer upside-down would provide new metal for drilling/tapping new mounting holes. Then you could do the drilling and tapping on a workbench where you can do your most accurate work.
Bob pointed out that it looks like corrosion behind your band clamps. You are going to have to remove them in order to remove the spacer to work on it. Examine that area really closely. If there is corrosion you need to ensure that it is less than 1/16" deep, then remove it entirely. Pitting can be filled with an epoxy designed to work with aluminum (sorry, aluminium). This is an example that I found on Amazon and which was approved by Mike Quill:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001RLYQ88
I imagine you can find it, or something similar, in the UK. Then you must use an aluminum epoxy primer followed by an epoxy paint system if you want to duplicate (roughly) how Klacko finished your mast originally. I had some corrosion problems which I fixed last winter and ended up just sanding off and refinishing from the deck up to about 7’ high.
The band clamps are stainless and your mast is aluminum. Those two facts, plus the addition of salt spray can add up to corrosion if the metals are not separated by some non-conductive material. A sealant is not adequate because it was liquid when the clamps were being placed and would squish out until the steel of the clamp was in contact with the paint on the mast. Any blemish in the paint or abrasion due to slight movement would allow the corrosion to being. Because of all that, it is unlikely that a sealant was used beneath the band clamps. It was probably some sort of neoprene strips.
When I put the lower part of my mast back together I used these band clamps: https://www.fisheriessupply.com/scandvik-316-ss-solid-band-hose-clamps/66308 I think I used the size 186. Not sure what a NS30 mast will need. And I put strips of that 1mm neoprene beneath them. If you cut them carefully you can size them so that they barely stick out at all. And if you fuss them around as you are tightening the clamps you can get them to lay in there evenly. And then they look like a highlight strip, rather than a bulging rubber spacer.
Your sail track looks kind of bunged up. It might be tough to get it back to perfect condition and the sail might not go up and down smoothly if you don’t. But I’ll bet a new Tides Track will smooth over any little bumps or dents you can’t get out…
We have a Tides track ib a 30 and very much like it. When we bought Nonsuch it had a very old Tides track that had perished in the sun with multiple cracks and small pieces broken off.
Hi all,
Thanks for your continued comments regarding my sail track predicament.
I have an engineer who has a good understanding of what can and can’t be done when mixing dissimilar metals and he will assist me in the repairs.
Does anyone know if the aluminium/aluminum spacer strip is available to buy and if so whether it can bought pre-drilled? This would save a lot of time and effort over fitting helicoils or drilling and tapping for over-size screws.
I think I will repair the existing system and then look to fit a Tides Marine track over it to hopefully aid the repair - might also be the right time to replace the current 35year old sail!
Thanks,
Thanks,
Pete
I’ve been using Lanocote made by Forespar for corrosion protection on fasteners. I understand it’s made from sheeps lanolin, and is less expensive than Tef-Gel.
https://www.forespar.com/products/boat-lubricant-lanocote.shtml
Don