Peter: We were discussing propane (have to light) vs engine heaters which are just there when you need them.
Joe
For the record, you don’t have to light Excel heaters and they do give you hot water in the morning or after a day at anchor without running the engine.
To each his own I guess.
Paul M
NS30U #211, Sandpiper
Cowichan Bay B.C.
Sorry Joe, I just sensed a fragment of potential humour there and did not mean to derail or offend.
Peter
Peter: Are you sure you don’t want the photos??
Joe Valinoti
S/V iL Gatto NS30U #221
Sea Harbour YC
Oriental, NC USA
Gary,
Ward,
does this mean your son can sail faster than you?
The Ensign never seemed to catch on out in this area. The Thunderbird was the small keel boat of choice in the Pacific Norhtwest. Most likely because, like the Ensign, it is also a great boat and had the added benefit/attraction of being designed out here.
The Excel water heater only has a flame and propane flowing when the water is running. As soon as the water is shut off the propane flow is cut. We generally only run it for a couple of minutes while the sink is filled. The cook top we will run for up to 1/2 hour. If the flame goes out on the stove the propane keeps flowing. The old Paloma and Bosch heaters used pilots lights which some people would leave on. That was a very bad idea. I don’t know if they had a thermocouple to shut off the propane if the pilot went out.
The vent stack height can be an issue. I no longer have the manual for the Wolter heater but it specified a stack height which was not easy to achieve. The Excel does not seem to need as much to work properly but active ventilation is a good idea. In some instances the wind will blow down the stack and the oxygen depletion sensor shuts the heater off. I don’t have a Charlie Noble on La Reina. Paul Miller has one on Sandpiper and I believe does not have a problem with back drafts.
Joe,
when I got La Reina she did not have 110v shore power. I added it when I installed refrigeration. Actually I had a licensed electrician install it. I figured 110 v could kill someone if it was installed incorrectly. Whether the 110 was installed by the owner or the factory does not change the fact that 110v on a boat introduces a hazard. The following showed up in my email from Practical Sailor this morning. It has to be taken with a grain of salt since they are trying to sell a book about installing 110V power on a boat. However, It is interesting given our current (pun intended) discussions.
|
"What’s the Single Most Dangerous Thing You Can Do With Your Boat? |
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Some say “Pull into a dock and plug in.” Combine AC, shore-based current with some stray DC current and you have a dangerous mix. And, in a marina, the problem is often difficult to see, isolate and remedy. " |
I don’t believe you regarding the pictures being available. If it didn’t happen you could not have pictures. If you have pictures than it did happen and thank you for not posting them. We need to maintain some level of decorum in this group.
Like Paul Miller we like to sit at anchor for a few days at a time. We don’t need to run the engine to charge the batteries so with only a heat exchanger running off the engine we would not have hot water on the second day without the Excel.
Mark Powers
La Reina 26C
Vancouver, B.C.
Please no!!!
Joe,
When you say engine driven unit are you talking about a 110VAC unit with a engine heat exchanger? I would appreciate seeing what you have done on Il Gatto.
Thank you,
Greg Doyal
NS30U #516 Challenge
Grosse Pointe, MI
Paul,
I too tend to agree with you and Mark. Once the decision is made to have propane on the boat then adding additional appliances is no more dangerous than the first. With the safety devices integrated into a water heater I would also argue that it is safer than a stove/oven. To me the important issue is to fully understand the system and where it is vulnerable. Once the solenoid is opened you have gas inside the boat and every hose and fitting is a potential problem. The good news is that hoses and fittings are designed to be extremely reliable so problems can be mitigated with regular inspection. Challenge is equipped with a propane detector, CO2 monitor, and smoke alarm which I think are mandatory if you are cooking or heating water or heating the cabin. Tragically we had a friend of ours killed while he was cooking dinner in his oven onboard. There was a leak between the solenoid and the oven and it allowed propane to leak into the cabin floor. Once he opened the oven door the propane ignited and he was badly injured and sadly passed away days later. Since that horrible accident everyone at our club has installed propane detectors with sensors near the cabin sole if the boat was not already equipped. Running the blower is also a good idea.
The reasons I am considering keeping the on demand water heater is twofold. It’s my hope after retiring to spend extended time in the North Channel and mostly on the hook. My experience with engine driven units is that after an hour of running the noisy diesel there is only enough hot water to wash dinner dishes and a quick shower for one person. With the boat holding nearly 90 gallons of water the idea of unlimited hot water seems like a good idea.
Thank you all for your input.
Greg Doyal
NS30U #516 Challenge
Grosse Pointe, MI
Greg: My Force 10 engine driven heater gives us at least two showers and water for the dishes. If not used, it will last at least 24 hrs. When I get underway, it takes about 15 or 20 minutes and I’ve got hot water. At the dock, it takes less then 10 for scalding water.
Joe Valinoti
S/V iL Gatto NS30U #221
Sea Harbour YC
Oriental, NC USA
My experience in the North Channel for the last half-dozen years has vindicated my decision to reinstall a demand water heater (Excel 1.6 GPM). Years ago, when my repeated attempts to repair/replace my Wolter 300 failed, I installed a Volvo hot water tank, engine/A/C driven, but found it took at least an hour of hard running (1800 rpm or better) to get piping hot water - good for 24 hours maybe, dishes only. I like the flexibility of staying put for an extra day or two on the hook in all the anchorages I have discovered and still having hot water with no engine running. So having a dual system that can switch between the two hot water sources has proved useful. But the Force 10 heater Joe Valinoti mentions sounds interesting.
Bill Baxter
PERSISTENCE NS30 #507
Penetang, ON
You are right about the safety devices Greg and redundancy is a good thing too. One thing that hasn’t been mentioned here yet, and may have been a contributor to your friend's tragic accident, is the old practice of joining propane lines inside the boat. Many (all?) Nonsuches were built with a tee joint under the floor so the water heater and the galley stove could feed off the same line. Sandpiper had this when I bought her in 2018. How many surveyors had approved her in 35 years?
She now has three separate lines to the Excel, the range, and the cabin heater that each run back to a manifold in the locker (which now drains properly).
Paul M
NS30U #211, Sandpiper
Cowichan Bay, B.C.
Paul;
Good point about the Tee inside the cabin.
On our boat, in the propane locker, there’s a manifold with three ball valves, so one can also shut off each appliance when propane’s on.
- oven
- old line for CAT heater (plugged at locker shutoff valve; no heater present)
- Excel water heater.
It’s all done by someone who knows what they were doing; that’s reassuring.
John A. Stewart
NS26C 046
Kingston ON.
Mark P.,
Gary only sails faster than I when he has perfect crew.
Ward Woodruff
N33 #8 Margery
Niantic Bay, CT
Ward, good to hear.
Mark Powers
La Reina 26C
Joe, any particular makes you would recommend?
Any particular Joe, there are several of us.
Joe Valinoti
S/V iL Gatto NS30U #221
Sea Harbour YC
Oriental, NC USA
~~~~~(\_ ~(\_ ~(\_~~~~~~~~~~
It’s okay, Joe Valinoti, I see your post farther up about the Force 10 you have. BTW, you are the only Joe in this subject thread. 
Another very happy and safe Excel hot water heater user here.
I won’t repeat all of the qualities and features except to say that problems with any fuel and electricity are more often than not found to have human error as its source. IMHO we all know that simply stepping on to a boat has its inherent dangers. And that danger is minimized, in part, through proper installation, use and required detectors of all marine systems. New propane hot water heaters are no exception. In return for that attention to safety they provide much more than a day or two of on demand hot water with no pilot flame or tank.
Best Regards,
Jim Falcon
Ballybay NS30U #357
Warren, RI
As an alternative, if I was starting from scratch and with a big bank account I would pull the propane off of the boat and install a diesel fired hydronic cabin and hot water heater (see link below) and a Wallas stove top for cooking. Warm boat, instant hot water, and cooking all without the risk of explosion. Unlike Captain Mike I already have a Diesel engine so would not be adding diesel aroma.
https://www.pysystems.ca/resources/tech-talk/whats-hot-in-onboard-heating-systems/
Mark Powers
La Reina 26C
Vancouver, B.C.
This looks like a wonderful set of components from a company that presents itself in a classy and informative manner. A good read, indeed. Very interesting, Mark.
Thanks !!
Ernie A. in Toronto