Jim Cosgrove of Fate started a discussion of reef block
William -
My boat is much smaller than yours (an NS22) but I think that the basic philosophy is the same. If we are being fussy, I think that our sails arecut such that the actual cringle will sit as close to the cheek block (port) or tied-off position (starboard) as possible and closer than yours is shown. But, by using a block for the reefing line to go through instead of the cringle, you are only increasing the distance around, say, 8", maybe ?? What’s really going on is that the actual cringle, as shown in the photo, is several feet away from the cheek block. This simply suggests that you hauled on the reefing line as best you could, while out sailing, and that’s as tight as you could pull it.
IF you had tied in this 2nd reef, on a calm day, at the dock, it would be interesting to see if you could have got the line tighter and the cringle closer.
On my boat, I don’t use a floating block on a line tied to the clew - I just go straight through the cringle. And, I have a nasty habit of tying ALL reefs in at the dock if it’s really blowing out there. Having the first reef already tied in doesn’t get in the way of the second reef tied in. So, with all of that, I’ve attached a close-up shot of my 2nd reef clew cringle, showing that it is pulled SERIOUSLY tight such that the cringle is really close to the boom cheeck block/boom tie-up position. Look carefully - it’s hard too see the actual clew but it’s there, half hidden by the boom. If I was out sailing and and had to reef, I don’t think I’d have gotten it as tight and neat as this (as I don’t put the reefing lines on winches).
Does any of this even vaguely help ???
Ernie A. in Toronto
William: Could you send this photo as an attachment so I can manipulate it??
Joe Valinoti
S/V iL Gatto NS30U #221
Sea Harbour YC
Oriental, NC USA
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[/details]Ernie,
Yes thanks. I also tie in at the dock when expecting wind. I will try it on calm day at the dock. This is my 20th year with this sail built by North using my old sail That came with the boat.
If I can’t get the cringle closer to the blocks I will suspect the crimgles were installed incorrectly.
Bill Evans
Companionship
#465
Galesville MD
.
You should be able to get it from my email I sent to the group. However, if not, it’s joesail1@gmail.com
Joe
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[/details]I’m so new to my Nonsuch that I’ve only had the sail up a couple of times, so I may be completely in left field here. When faced with this problem with a conventional mainsail, the solution was to move the boom to the cringle since the cringle can’t move to the boom.
The sequence for this was 1. Ease the mainsheet so the boom can be raised sufficiently, 2. use the toping lift to get the top of the boom level with the cringle, 3. secure the reef line, 4. Ease the topping until it is no longer supporting the boom, 5. Trim the mainsheet.
I cant tell from the pic, where the topping is positioned, but if there is still some travel left, I would suggest raising it before releasing the main halyard to set the luff reef cringle, that way the leech reef cringle will be better positioned relative to the wishbone reef point.
Martin
ZENO NS 30C # 33 Toronto
Ernie, your leach reef looks tighter than I thought was advised. It looks to be almost straight across, while my understanding was that there should be a reasonably sharp vee (boom-clew-cheek block) to reduce the sideways strain on the wishboom.
Paul M
NS30U #211, Sandpiper
Cowichan Bay, B.C.
Ease the choker as well as the topping loft. This will allow you to get the cringle, or block, closer to the turning block on the boom.
Bill
Paul -
You’ve brought up an interesting point. Without getting into measurements, etc. and just going with what I think seems correct (hmmmm … ), if I were to raise my sail fully at the dock, with no wind and, of course, ease the topping lift, the clew of the sail would support the aft end of the boom “in a certain place” or, hopefully, in the RIGHT place. I will assume that this is the case with my boat - the boom seems to sit in the right place, heightwise, and it doesn’t feel as if it is being pulled back (aft) by anything. I have lots of choker adjustment room.
So … still sitting there, no wind, I lower the sail and tie in the 1st reef. I tie the clew reef line such that the line is almost straight across. The boom doesn’t move more than a few inches, in any direction. it’s as if everything just moved “straight down” - there is no strange tension, etc., in any direction.
I keep going - tie in the 2nd reef. Same deal. Everything moves straight down and I’m able to achieve the same “almost straight across” clew tie-up.
More important, when I sail reefed, the sail looks and feels perfect - no bags, pulls, creases, etc. Everything seems to line up. In the photo that you saw, it didn’t help matters that the topping lift was, in fact, holding up the end of the boom (as I think I forgot to release it). The only time that I (normally) sail with the topping lift holding up the boom is if the waves are big and the boom is dropping into the drink or if I wish to “scandalise the main” (love that expression). On a calm day, no wind, I lift the aft end of the sail to get some curve into it.
I’ve attached a PDF showing two lines (a red and a black) to (I hope) illustrate the point that as I drop the sail, the cringles line up with the two locations on the boom that they are "supposed to be aligned with “or so I think”. I’ve also attached a PDF with a few photos of the sail while reefed.
Maybe I’m wrong but what I am doing feels correct (and, I think, looks correct).
Ernie A. in Toronto
Ernie,
Everything sounded perfect and it all looked good until I got to the clew on the second reef, that just does not look right to me. Is the topping lift holding up the boom at that point? What does it look like when the topping lift is slacked?
I can never get the second reef on White O’morn to look right, yours looks much better except for the clew.
Tim in STL
White O’morn NS26U #216
Harbor Point Yacht Club
West Alton, MO
Tim -
That is a very deceiving shot (2nd. reef.jpg - not 2nd reef upper). One cannot actually see the 2nd reef clew as it’s hidden by the boom. The 1st reef is still tied in so there is some sloppy sail between the 2 clews that wouldn’t be there if the 1st reef is was not tied in.
Make sense ?
Ernie A. in Toronto
And … yes, the topping lift was not slacked off. The sail, normally, looks nice and neat with the 2nd reef in.
Here are 2 more shots of the 2nd reef in. Apologies for the quality.
Ernie A. in Toronto
I get what you are saying Ernie but I think you missed what I was saying. 
My concern (not really mine but from studying Nonsuchery) was that if you have a straight line from the bitter end of the reef line to the turning block, then forces created when the wind tries to pull the clew forward will be exerted athwartships creating a bending force on the wishboom tubing.
If the clew is allowed to set further forward on the wishboom the force becomes more along the tubing and is less stressful on it.
…… as I understand it.
I think this is mostly a result of your (admirable) practice of setting the reefs in advance with the sail down. Nothing wrong with caution, especially when sailing alone but …. it would be extremely difficult to pull the reef line to that point if you were sailing at the time.
When you reef under sail you can feel the force it takes to pull that clew back and it is considerable. Think of that force trying to pull the tubes of the boom together.
Aha … OK - Paul. Point well taken and, come spring, I’ll give that a shot.
I’d love to hear about the experience of others with this question.
Thanks, again.
Ernie A. in Toronto (waiting for spring)
I read in the Botts manual as follows:
“Tighten the leech (clew) reef line until the clew is about 1 foot above the wishbone.”
That is pretty much where my clews sat on the 2 reef points.
David Godfrey
NS30C #145 Thursday"s Child
RNSYS Nova Scotia
Thanks, David. Much appreciated.
Ernie A. in Toronto
Bill,
It is a bit hard to tell from the picture but it looks like the block on the cringle is about 2 feet in front of and one foot above the boom reef block. That appears to be about right. It would be nice to see a picture of the sail when reefed and to see how far back you are able to move the boom.
Ernie, you clearly have not had a problem with your boom and the reef points however at page 3, Note C in “Nonsuch thots By Botts” it states: “You do not want the clew too close to the wishbone as this overloads the wishbone in the horizontal plane, athwartship, and this could bend the wishbone. Somewhere near a foot above the wishbone is optimum.”
What is interesting is that in the photos you attached to your response the boom looks like it is as far back as you can move it and yet there looks to be several feet of sail laying agains the boom. If I was reefed and beating I would have tried to get the sail off of the boom to de-power it. If you were to ease the clew reef line until the cringle was 1 foot above the boom I suspect you would have even a more difficult time flattening the sail so I am not sure you can take Bott’s advice with your current sail.
Mark Powers
Mark -
You, Paul and others have awakened me to the notion (correct, I may add) that by not keeping the clew a little above and forward of the line between the two sides of the boom, I may be actually creating enough force to bend the sides of the boom inward.
So far, I’ve been lucky (or there simply isn’t enough force to damage the boom). Come Spring, I’ll tie in my reefs on a windy day just like always. I’ll go out there and then slowly ease them out (the #1 and #2) and see/feel the difference. Of course, I’ll also play with the all-important choker and watch the sail. While my present approach has always provided a good-looking neat reefed sail, I look forward to seeing the results and knowing that I’m giving the equipment a well-deserved break (and doing it the right way, frankly).
One thing, Mark - the photo shows BOTH reefs actually tied in, while I was sailing with the #2 reef. This left the #1 clew in a sort of odd “pulled” state. I think that if only the #2 clew reef was actually tied in, maybe the rest of the sail would have laid there quite neatly.
Anyway, I can’t wait for Spring.
Ernie A. in Toronto
1 foot above and 1 foot fwd of the cheek blocks ,that’s the rule Botts used
