Soave - Pondering weather helm.

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1

I’ve was avid dingy racer for many years and have been hesitant to return to racing with Soave because I didn’t believe she ( or I ) was ready to perform credibly.

One of my concerns is weather helm. When close hauled in moderate wind last season I needed to apply about 1/4 to a half turn of steerage to keep Soave on course. I was fighting weather helm. Very frustrating when your goal is velocity.

Over the winter I pondered this and came up with a plan to address it, by asking myself what would I do in my Flying Scot… increase forward mast rake.

Unfortunately I didn’t see a way to do this on Soave.

Also over the winter I also set out to address mast wedges that would “bottom out” before fully snugging the mast in the collar ( separate but related issue). The solution was to extend the tapered portion of the wedges up a bit by cutting into the mast shoulder and removing about 1/2" of material ( giving the wedge about another 1/2" of travel ). This change gave the wedge about another 3/16" of thickness when bottomed out ).

I modified half of Soave’s mast wedges in this way and marked them for use in the aft sections of her mast. This ( in theory ) would give Soave an ever so slight increase in forward mat rake. It would also permit wedges to fully sung the mast in the collar.

Yesterday was the first day I was able to test with ideal control conditions.

  • Steady moderate wind ( 12 knots )
  • Same sail that I used last season.
  • Flat sea.
    Earlier this season I had the the general feeling weather helm was reduced, but I hadn’t really quantified by how much till yesterday. ( HERE ) is a video of Soave’s autopilot easily steering a close hauled course in 12 knots with full main. Before the change these conditions would have required a full quarter turn ( or more ) on the wheel.

Unfortunately my speed sensor in not functioning again… so I don’t have a solid assessment of improvement in boat speed. Based on SOG from my plotter it’s about .25 knot improvement.

The only downside I’ve encountered is that under 8 knots steering feels awkward because of slight lee helm. But I think I can get used to it.

Has anyone else experimented with subtle changes in mast rake ? Did you get similar results ?

Rob
s/v SOAVE
NS33 #009
Cedar Point YC
Westport, CT

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Rob: I’ve been racing iL Gatto (shoal draft) against sloops for about 20 years quite successfully. Usually need about 12 kts of wind to point well without too much weather helm and, of course, downwind – no contest. For some strange reason, the boat points higher and sails faster on a port tack.

Joe Valinoti
S/V iL Gatto NS30U #221
Sea Harbour YC
Oriental, NC USA

3

Hi,

I’ve only sailed her about two hours, double reefed, offshore, in 35-40k breeze.
Hard on the wind, she pointed beautifully and sailed hands and autopilot off.
I had to engage the autopilot, in standby, as there is no wheel lock.
So I have no experience but lots of hope.
However
By boat “Southpaw” has a 1.375 degree list to port
It is very noticeable.
Has anyone attempted your selective wedge trick to eliminate list.
WHICH
Could also result in sailing one tack different than t’other Rob.

Fran Cichowski
Southpaw N30U #300
Spicers in Noank, CT

4

Just to throw my two cents in. Could the speed difference on tacks have something to do with the prop offset Joe?

Pete DePascale
NS33 #006
Branford,CT

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I don’t think so, Peter, as it’s a folding Gori.

Joe Valinoti
S/V iL Gatto NS30U #221
Sea Harbour YC
Oriental, NC USA

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Regarding mast wedges: I got a new set of the nylon/plastic wedges & found they were slightly too big to fit all the way down. A racing expert that I spoke to said that was exactly what I needed since I don’t have steel cables with turnbuckles to adjust mast lean. He said to simply move some up & some down to get the desired lean at the top of my mast.
Herb G. Huber, MISTOFFELEES 30C#91, Lake Huron Nonsuch Association, Point Edward/Sarnia, Ont.

7

Rob,

A few thoughts, not based on my own racing experience but solely on things I’ve read in the Nonsuch sailing guidance.

First, a question: how much playing with sail shape were you doing? You can move the center of effort around by flattening or easing the sail with the choker. Did you try that and find it insufficient, or have you not experimented with that?

Also, because of mast bend as the wind picks up, you can start to see scalloping in the sail. That’s never bothered me enough to do anything about it because I’m a look-at-the-pretty-nature sailor rather than an avid racer. However, my sailmaker’s advised me that if I care about racing, I need to have a cunningham.

Finally, I don’t know if a polar plot’s readily available for a N33, but if you haven’t seen them, you might be interested in the polar plots on the www.Nonsuch.org website for N26s and N30s. (Open the INA INFORMATION tab and click on MISC. BOAT DATA.) The plots show that, although the boats can point as high as 35-40 degrees, they gain a lot of speed when you fall off to 50-60 degrees. Again, I don’t race, I just read – but the articles seem to indicate that the speed difference is enough to at least come close to making up for the distance lost by not staying as close to the wind.

– Bob

8

It was interesting to hear that 33’s and 30’s have issues with excessive weather helm. Mascouche (26C #1) had it in spades with her Botts big leech sail. I resorted to using a single reef at wind speeds over 12 knots to maximize performance. Once Pondus (26C #33) and ourselves went sailing in a 30 to 40 knot breeze double reefed single handed. We were impressed with the boats ease of handling and total control like Southpaw reported. With the double reef the sail area was concentrated in the centre of effort.

In planning for sailing during my octogenarian years, I realised that I needed to change the rig so that I did not need to reef as often and I wanted her to be as safe and seaworthy as possible. The result was a standing gaff rig with the foot reduced by 5’ which was similar to the double reefed wishbone rig and I added some extra canvas at the peak to help make up for the loss of sail area. This resulted in being able to sail with neutral helm in breezes up to 30 knots without having to take in a reef. The design permits using a single reefing pennant for making a tidy efficient reef. I have never had to use more than a single reef.

From a safety point of view, the 30 lb. boom does not hang over the cockpit and the mainsheet remains ahead of the cockpit except the bitter end going to a winch in the cockpit. This removes two causes of injuries which can be serious. The 15’ 30 lb. boom replaced my old wishboom which weighed 120 lbs with its s/s extension. This weight reduction and reduced length made gybing much less stressful and a more viable option in most conditions.

Now I am 87 and have no regrets in changing the rig. There are always some tweaks that would improve the rig, but there is no urgency as I approach my 90’s. This year in deference to my angina I have bought a power winch handle for raising sail.

John Newell
Mascouche 26C #1
Toronto

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Hi Bob,
Last season I played lots with sail trim to reduce weather helm. Increased choker and halyard both helped by bringing draft forward, but did not reduce weather helm to a level I felt was acceptable.

I was happy with the result this year after the change in Soave’s mast wedges… but still experimenting.

I haven’t used a Cunningham yet but I’ll bet it would also help move draft forward and help weather helm. I’m very impressed by how much control the choker provides… it seems to serve the rolls of a vang and outhaul at the same time. Vang was an essential control on our Flying Scot.

I’ve been using the polars from the NS30 as a guide… this season it’s tricky because my speed transducer is on the fritz. I’m guessing using GPS SOG. I’d say Soave is matching the off wind targets but slower than the close hauled targets.

With waypoints, my chart plotter reports VMG. Now that I’ve got a handle on the weather helm I can play a bit to see how much footing helps. Our auto-pilot does a fair job holding a course relative to wind direction so we can use it to get a rough idea of the how pointing impacts speed if the winds are steady.

For Soave 35º-40º is too high. The best way to assess pointing ability is to observe the change in course after tacking. If you come off the tack at 90º then you were sailing at 45º into the wind. If you tack through 100º you were sailing at 50º.

So far I’m seeing 43º-48º provides pretty good VMG if the breeze is over 12 and if the breeze slacks footing helps… maybe 54º becomes the new sweet spot at 8 knots.

A work in progress.

Rob…

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Are your numbers apparent or true wind angles?

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Hi Mark,
Sorry for a long post… for me, this is an interesting topic.

HERE is a photo of Soave’s instruments on a port tack with a SOG of about 5 knots.

The angles in my note are not directly from instruments. In my opinion, AWA is good for trim understanding but less useful for understanding boat performance.

Because Soave’s speed transducer isn’t working, my instruments are only reporting AWA. They cannot compute TWA without boat speed, but even with a working speed transducer, instantaneous TWA seems to overstate windward performance.

The numbers I cited are derived from the change in heading after tacking from a close hauled course to the other tack. This approach only works if current is negligible and wind is steady. It is close to what instruments would report as TWA but averages in some efficiency losses not captured by TWA instrument readings.

For my measurements, I sail close hauled to the layline (assuming 90º tacks ) of a windward racing mark, tack, accelerate, and see if I can fetch the mark. The number of degrees above or below the mark provides insight into Soave’s ability to “point” (work up wind). I do this about 40-50 yards from the mark to give ample time for acceleration and to settle in on the new course before assessing my ability to fetch the mark.

This exercise also helps hone your ability to find the layline.

Soave seems to like a quick turn thru the wind of about 50º. She loses about 1.5 knots of boat speed. To accelerate the main is eased and we foot off about 5º for about 30-60 seconds. Once up to speed, we slowly come up and trim till the wishbone just a smidge outboard. Then the fun begins, further trimming lets you point more but kills speed. If the race mark is in your chartplotter you can use VMG on your plotter as a guide for optimizing trim.

This past weekend we had some amazingly steady wind and I learned a lot about Soave.

BTW, if I tack with the mark at 90º I cannot fetch it, which means I need to hold before tacking. Usually 95º does it. If racing I’d probably give it more like 100º just to be sure… or plan to stay in the middle of the course till closer to the mark. Something Stuart Walker advocates in his book Positioning… oops I kinda dated myself with that comment. But still one of my favorite books on racing.

Rob…

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Rob, never apologize to me for along post. Mine can go on for pages.

The instruments on La Reina are dated (speed from 1982, gps 2009) and they are not integrated. I compare my ship’s magnetic compass bearing to the course overground from the gps to determine leeway. I try to set a way point directly to windward to give velocity made good. I compare speed through water to gps speed to get an idea of current.

I generally thought I did best at apparent wind angles of 35 degrees with the sailed sheeted so a plumb bob from the boom would touch the rear quarter. If the wind speed increased and La Reina heeled I could sheet in a bit more and point a bit higher without loosing to much speed. Paul Miller, has fully integrated instruments and got The polars for the 30s put on the Raymarine charts finds that with his crisp new sail that in about 15 knots of apparent wind his best vmg is made at 29 degrees. He finds it difficult to keep it the boat there so sails at 30 degrees apparent.

I find that wind speed, sea state, boat loading and skipper mind set have an impact. Lower wind speeds and or lumpy seas require a bit wider angle.

I have a friend who sails and races a 18 Osprey dinghy sloop. He has come out several times with me. We have been adjusting the choker to allow a bit more twist in the sail and to give some curve to the leech. In stronger winds I think I was flattening the sail too much and was loosing drive.

I find some days I do better on port tack and other days better on starboard. It can be caused by differences in how full each water tank is as well as if the waves, wind and current don’t fully line up. Some days I feel I have it figured out and then the next I haven’t got a clue. The latter days drive me crazy.

Struggling to stay awake right now so will end here.

Mark

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My MFD has a little picture of a boat at my location. And there is a line extending out from the bow, showing my COG. And the length of the line is proportionate to my SOG. I figure if the line is pointing where I want to go and is as long as I can manage to make it, I’m probably doing just fine. :slightly_smiling_face:

But I do read all of your different methods and ideas because I’m not great at keeping that line as long as possible.

And all of those red and green buoys sure do keep me aware of leeway. For as spread out as they are, I always seem to be headed right for one.

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Mark,
Interesting. We can use AWA for apples to apples comparisons.

  • Paul likes 29-30º
  • You like 35º
  • I like been sailing to 29-32º (I’m probably too high and with more practice might settle in at 30-35º)

These are pretty close as targets go. I’ll bet when we race our actual AWA’s are ± 5 when we hand steer. Lots of tactical factors in play.

I miss tiller feedback and still getting used to using a wheel.

Never had instruments ( except a tack-tick ) for dinghy racing, but missing Soave’s speed transducer now. The transducer Soave currently has is an Airmar smart tri multisensor 20-633-01. Folks I’ve spoken to say the expected life-span is pretty short for multisensor transducers and Soave has an extra hole with a blank plug in it. I’m going to take my time with the replacement choose wisely. Airmar seems to be the only game in town for NMEA speed transducers the others are just rebranded Airmar units.

Rob…

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Brian,
Yep details like buoy colors do matter. We woke up Sunday morning to see a 40’ sailboat high and dry at Saugatuck River Buoy 10. The bar off Bluff Point is the usual spot for groundings, sometimes two a weekend.

Our slip is in the basin at Bluff Point. Nice protection but you have to keep it between the buoy’s as they say. After 20 years I could probably do it blindfolded, but I get disoriented quickly when in new places.

Rob…

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The buoys in San Diego bay mark the channel that the aircraft carriers and cargo ships use. They are huge and hitting one would destroy my boat and I’d probably get fined for scratching the paint on the buoy. For me, almost the whole bay is sailable and right up to the riprap in some places. I’m most worried about banging into a buoy due to leeway when it is masked behind the sail. Whenever I let someone else steer I always emphasize that they should pass downwind of the buoys unless I’m right there to approve going upwind of them. We did have a close call one day …

But back to your techniques. It’s all interesting to me. I generally do not feel like I do well above 45 degrees of apparent wind and would like to learn why not when you guys seem to get an extra ten degrees. An extra ten degrees would make a huge difference to me when headed out into the ocean because there is more sea life farther out, but to get there I need to head west into westerly prevailing winds. We like to go out into the dolphin swarms (sometimes in the hundreds or even thousands) but it’s tough to get out there.

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Brian,
I doubt the performance of Vela is materially different from Soave. I think you are evaluating performance using a different framework… to compare, we have to standardize on methodology.

How are you measuring apparent wind ? How are you measuring speed?

When I’m sailing with AWA 30º I pay a significant penalty in speed because I’m optimizing for upwind progress. VMG ( velocity made good ) the goal when working upwind.

Last season I was freaking out about weather helm because of the drag created by my rudder. As you point higher, drag quickly is your limiting factor. Reducing Soave’s weather helm was my top action item.

My guess is that Vela may also have weather helm.

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I’ve got a wind instrument at the top of the mast with a display on the aft cabin bulkhead and on my MFD. My speed sensor is missing some teeth, so reports a little less than half of the actual speed and I don’t pay it any attention. I use the GPS in the MFD to display SOG. Or maybe it uses the one in the AIS which has a much better antenna, I’m not sure how the MFD decides which to use. (That’s getting to be too many acronyms for me.)

Like I said earlier, I mostly use the length of the line in front of the little boat icon as a vague indicator of VMG and CMG (course made good?) It is probably calibrated internally, but gives no indication of the actual numbers so I can only see it getting longer or shorter. I shoot for longer.

Yes, I do have some weather helm which is most obvious during gusts. I saw your previous post about correcting it by tilting the mast forward, but I would not be able to do that because there is SparTite poured around the mast. I’m aware of the drag caused by the rudder, but just live with it.

Reading what Mark wrote, I suppose my aging sail might be part of the problem. I’m not sure, but it might be original to the boat. That would make it 28 years old now, though lightly used according to a local sailmaker who did a repair last spring. He thinks it has 5 years left in it. I have been thinking about replacing it now so I can enjoy those 5 years myself, since I’ll have to do it eventually, anyway. But he gave me an estimate of around $11K and then along came the mast issues and I had to wait on the sail.

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Hi Brian,

Too bad you don’t have an option to play with mast rake, Redoing the SparTite would be expensive.

Your instruments should be reporting apparent wind so we should be able to compare my readings to yours. If we test at slack tide and observe speed (SOG) at a couple different angles at a similar wind speed we can compare. The other day in the photo I shared, our SOG was about 4.8. Next time I’m out, I could take measurements at 30º, 35º, 40º, and 45º AGA. Should provide enough apple-2-apples data to understand if there is a difference.

I’ll continue to update you on my progress. I have a second sail that was made by Quantum and about 5 years old that I’m going to begin to test after I get some baseline numbers for the older sail.

I got a quote for a new main from the Quantum guy from the INA site vendors page last year. It was about 8K.

North has a strong presence at our club. Some of the sailor that work at North gave a pretty honest description of why the Quantum sail might be my best bet. They also warned that we’re a few seasons away from Quantum getting integrated into the North Sails group, Quantum is still operating independently even after the acquisition last year. When they get integrated some of their pricing flexibility will likely evaporate.

The thing I found most interesting when talking to the sail experts… because our masts are flexible they don’t apply as much stretching force on the sail as a stayed mast. Using low stretch material doesn’t offer as much benefit for a Nonsuch as it does for a J-boat. Modern Dacron derivatives are plenty strong enough to resist the loads our rigs place on the sail.

Smooth Sailing…

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Rob, Brian,

I’m curious, when you encounter weather helm, how tight are you sheeting the sail?

The weather helm I’ve encountered on my 26 has been manageable with adjusting the choker, easing the sheet if that fails, reefing if that fails. But my goal’s have been reasonable speed in reasonable comfort rather than speed alone.

I haven’t tested it scientifically, but my unscientific impression is consistent with my book learning from all the how-to-sail articles on the Nonsuch website: reefing doesn’t exact nearly the speed penalty that one might expect. (Then again, my position on conflicting instrument readings is to pick the one which makes my boat look best, so I’m not really a player in those aspects of this discussion.)

FWIW, I asked Mark Ellis his advice for when to reef when I interviewed him for my Good Old Boat article on Nonsuch 36s a few years back, and his key advice was to focus on rudder drag and reef when the rudder’s fighting you.

– Bob