Hi Steve,
Wondering if you and your Nonsuch are in Green Turtle Cay now? I hope to be there soon, storm stayed in Bimini at the moment (not with my Nonsuch, sailing with a friend on an old school sloop). I would really like to see the repair to your mast. Haven’t been to Abacos since pre Dorian and hoping to find people and things in better shape…
Greg Silver
Misty Cat 26C #121
St. Peter’s, Cape Breton
Nova Scotia
The Dyneema will deteriorate, as will the stainless. During my boat shopping year I learned that some insurance companies require stainless steel standing rigging to be replaced every 15 to 20 years, though it’s just hearsay, really. That’s why I asked the rigger to scale up my Dyneema boom hangers from the 1/4" that he was recommending (same as the wire diameter) to 5/16". It just gives me more margin. Since it is good for a whole lot more weight that the couple of hundred pounds that each boom hanger will take, I feel pretty confident that it will last me for a very long time even with significant degradation.
The 1/4" wire, assuming it was 316 stainless, has a breaking strength of 4739 pounds, according to a chart I found online. 8mm (5/16") Dyneema has a breaking strength of 9 tons with eye splices or 18,000 pounds. So it can degrade an awful lot before it gets down to the strength of brand new stainless.
I’m curious about the stains on the wire cover. The rigger looked at the old wire boom hangers and said they needed replacement. Being as it had that white covering on it, I didn’t know how he could tell. It did have rusty splotches all over it, but I assumed they had just collected from some external source. Can the rust spots actually seep through the plastic or something? Otherwise, how do the stains on the outside tell you anything about what’s going on inside? (My topping lift does have some minor rust stains, so it is something I am starting to wonder more about…)
Finally, one last note for Steve: you may already know about this, but if not I have found it to be important from personal experience: The topping lift wire/Dyneema line goes most of the way towards the end of the boom and then there is running rigging the rest of the way to the boom end to allow for adjusting the overall topping action. I’m sure you already know that part. But there is also an additional piece of wire/Dyneema which bypasses that running rigging and acts as a safety line. So if someone accidentally releases the topping lift line from the winch on the cabintop the boom will not just freefall onto someone’s head. Don’t forget that safety line.
Concerning the missing topping lift length from Mike Quill, I have found that if two or more people are in the process of responding simultaneously or are responding to the originator alone the thread goes forward with some data missing. If not sure I always open the website for complete information.
Brian Cayer
Spirit~Wind
N30U 419
Deep River, CT
Seeing as how the original poster has gotten his answer and the discussion has moved on, I can’t resist throwing in my $0.02.
Re dyneema vs. stainless steel, as my father used to say, it’s six points for one vs. half a dozen points for the other. You can make either one work just fine. It’s a matter of whether you prefer the ability to do it yourself with dyneema or are more comfortable paying a rigger. And maybe whether UV deterioration scares you more or corrosion scares you more. Me, I like dyneema, and use it wherever I can.
To the guy who did his N22 to get rid of his topping lift and rely on a second halyard: I inherited a similar arrangement when I bought my current N26. I am not happy about it, and would not recommend it – particularly on the larger boats.
As the wishbone gets heavier, you don’t have the purchase that you have with a multi-part block arrangement at the end of the topping lift. With a fixed topping lift kept appropriately short, you can have both the multi-part block for adjustments and a keeper line to protect you from the boom dropping. I ended up adding that multi-part block at the end of the second halyard.
When something that should be standing rigging is set up using running rigging, which is what we’re both doing with the halyard, you then have to set up something to keep it fixed in position (e.g., run it through a jammer, tie it to a cleat, …). Then you have to worry not just about that set-up failing, but also someone making a mistake with it. That means tying stop knots, putting up “Don’t touch this” signs, somehow securing the lever on your sheetstopper, … or whatever. Then you have to worry about being able to undo when needed whatever preventative measures you just put in place.
Last, but not least, the second halyard is a back-up both for main halyard failure and in case you need to go up the mast. If it’s in use as a topping lift, you lose that.
If, like me, you’ve inherited the situation, it’s not so bad that you can’t live with it. But I don’t think it’s a good idea to switch from topping lift to second halyard on anything bigger than a N22.
– Bob
Me Gusta
Nonsuch e26U #233
My boat is there i’m home in Mass Be back Jan 3
Great Island great People
I thought I’d add a couple items that I didn’t see discussed about Dyneema, especially for this use case:
– The working load of Dyneema, and all ropes that terminate in a loop, need a minimum bend radius to support the load. This is because the strands on the ID bear a different load than the OD. Samson recommends 3x the rope diameter for pin terminations. Active sheaves, 8x. People often overlook this, it would need to be factored in for the topping lift terminations, where a wire swage does not have to contend with bend radius (if not swaged, there is a similar requirement though).
– There’s a lot of different Dyneema. I use Samson’s Amsteel Blue for my mooring bridle, because it has a UV coating. The bend radius where the loops connect to the 3-strand pennant isn’t an issue, but between the 1" radius at the bow cleats, and the eventual UV degradation of the outer layers, I calculate that the 30,000lb minimum strength rating has now been reduced to about 10,000lb after a couple years, but I’m still ahead of the game compared the 3/4" polyester setup I had.
That said, when I moved my topping lift adjustment from the aft end of the boom to run in the “lazy jack loops” and back to the cockpit, I used 58’ of 3/16" New England Ropes HTS 75 Dyneema, in-line spliced to 20’ of conventional double-braid for the cockpit winching. When time comes to replace my topping lift wire, I’ll likely use some form of Dyneema to reduce weight and to be able to do the work myself.
Dan Weinstein
Look Farther, 30C #205
East Greenwich, RI
This is an older thread, didn’t want to start a new one, hoping this makes research easier for others going forward.
I am rejuvenating my 1983 Nonsuch and generally making things simpler, for my 8th decade of life, which I think will primarily be day sailing and shorter overnight cruises of a few days, on Bras d’Or Lake and coastal Nova Scotia. I am eliminating some tired systems I won’t need (water and cabin heating, for example), and renewing the ones I will need. Overall goal is to simplify maintenance while keeping the boat suitable for my more limited sailing plans.
Among the new upgrades are the topping lift, which in my case has been a fixed standing length, PVC coated wire, since new in 1983. That coated wire was replaced by Mike Quill just a year before I laid Misty Cat up in fall 2019. Planning to relaunch soon. I want to have an adjustable topping lift, and am looking to shorten the existing fixed wire, connect it to a pennant and run that to the cockpit. I am thinking of putting the load-reducing blocks in the drop from the wishbone to the deck, rather than above the wishbone, similar to how our chokers are rigged. This would enable me to use a Dyneema or similar slippery non-stretch line (from end of standing wire topping lift from mast) along the wishbone and part way down the mast, to the load-reducint block and tackle. Through that block and tackle I would use a covered line suitable to go to deck and then a deck mounted rope clutch into the cockpit.This location seems to make it easier to service, install and remove these blocks at fall and spring hauls and launches when I step/unstep the mast.
Wondering:
if anyone has any comments about moving the tackle from above boom to adjacent the mast, and from other 26’rs out there?
how long is your wire topping lift to the adjustable block and tackle? As Mark Powers pointed out below, it needs to be short enough to accommodate more extreme adjustments for reefing - looks like he shortened by 3’ from aft end of boom. I may have read this wrong…This is the magic number I am looking for so I can calculate the length to shorten standing wire, and then calculate for pennants to reducing blocks, and then to cockpit.
Thanks and cheers,
Greg Silver
Misty Cat 26C #121
St. Peter’s, Cape Breton
Nova Scotia
Hi Greg,
It is appealing to remove weight and complexity from the end of the wishbone and bring it inboard and centered.
I am not familiar with the specific dimensions on the NS26, it looks like Soave ( NS33 ) may have had a block and tackle mounted on her mast at some time in her past. I see dings and scratches possibly caused by the floating end moving up and down the mast. The dings were probably from slapping, not sure about the scratches. It’s kinda ugly and looks more vulnerable to the effects of weathering.
When rigging for this change, be sure the angles are such that the floating end of your block and tackle cannot engage with your mast. Seems doable, but for some reason this detail may have been overlooked on Soave at some point in her past.
When I purchased Soave in 2023 the block and tackle for topping lift adjustments were in their normal location at the outboard end of her wishbone. Perhaps as a solution to the increased cosmetic wear on mast ?
Interesting thread… I understand the comment about shorter standing part of topping lift makes reefing easier, since we lift the boom before tensioning the luff.
I do not understand the comment about the Bott sails having their leech cringles set higher. Do these sails have the tack cringles also moved higher or just the leech ? Or maybe the entire sail was optimized with the expectation the reef would be used frequently ? On my prior boats, mainsails were optimized to flatten to de-power and reefing always seemed to be considered an extreme and infrequent option. Maybe flattening isn’t as practical with our rigs and reefing is a better alternative for de-powering ?
I’m very interested to understand the intent of modified leach reefing points so I can determine if the idea has merit for my sailing experience on Long Island Sound. The Bott sails I’ve heard about seems to be optimized for more wind than we generally experience here… but I’m still gathering info.
Rob Cohen
s/v SOAVE
NS33 #009
Westport, CT
Hi Rob
Thanks for your response to my post about the topping lift. I appreciate your thoughts. First, a response to your comment about dings and scratches on your mast. These may be from the floating choker block? Mine is encased in a leather pouch which mitigates potential damage to the mast and has worked well over the years. I have never seen a topping lift rigged with lifting tackle as I imagined in my post (i.e. from fore end of wishbone to deck), so I would be surprised if yours had this before, but would be very interested to know if it was…
I can’t respond to comments in another post about the leech cringles set higher, but I can vouch for a reason to raise the boom when reefed. I’ve had the experience sailing downwind in high winds (like when you really need to reef) with the aft end of the mast dipping in the sea when the low side gets extra low. Not a comforting feeling when you consider how much water and weight might scoop into the many yards of sailcloth under the wishbone.
Otherwise… its been a pleasure to read your other posts, seems you have some deep experience in sailing and racing other rigs and you are keen to optimize your Nonsuch sailing experience. Carry on!
I have sent a rigger request to Mike Quill on this issue and will share what I learn with this discussion group.
Greg Silver
Misty Cat 26C #121
St. Peter’s, Cape Breton
Nova Scotia
In regards to the floating choker block – Consider an old tennis ball. Quite effective and dirt cheap!!
Joe Valinoti
S/V iL Gatto NS30U #221
Sea Harbour YC
Oriental, NC USA
Captain Greg,
I don’t know the length of the standing portion of the topping lift. If you can wait a while I will take a long tape down to the boat and get an approximate length for you. The mast is up so no exact measurement.
When I discussed sails with Botts he said he raised the leech cringle to lift the heel of the boom higher so that it was less likely to drag in the water. The description/explanation Captain Greg gives is exactly in accord with what Botts told me. Raising the leech reef cringle will only work if the corresponding reef tack cringle is not raised as well. If it is raised you simply get a deeper reef with the heel of the boom at the same height above the water. Placement is important because you need correct tension on both the foot and the leech of the sail.
Mark Powers
This is timely! Any chance of a photo?
The floating block on my choker was leather covered. When we came in from our sail last week my friend was putting out the fenders and came back with a chunk of the leather. The mast is still protected for the time being, but I need to fix this pretty quickly or it won’t be.
Thanks,
Brian Godfrey
Vela, NS33 #77, San Diego
I don’t know about the 26, but my owner’s manual lists the size and length of every piece of rigging on the boat (as designed, obviously). I was looking at it just yesterday and it lists all three components of the topping lift: standing part (wire), safety strap (wire), and running part (line). Yours might, too.
And don’t forget the safety strap! It’s the part that catches the boom in case someone accidentally throws the topping lift off of the winch. You don’t want the boom to drop on your head. Your heirs will not forgive you for saddling them with your moorage fees.
Brian Godfrey
Vela, NS33 #77, San Diego
Greg,
You are correct… the floating choker block is not present on Soave ! When I expand the diagram in my NS33 manual, I see the block ( if it were present ) would land right where the dings in my mast are.
All season I’ve been scratching my head thinking the choker is way too hard to trim… now I know why. Just in time to add to my list for Santa.
I’ll bring up the location of the reef cringle with my sailmaker, I suspect given my location and proclivity for racing he will recommend the conventional location.
The idea of moving the cringle reminds me of the flattening reef (AKA gentleman’s reef ) used see a lot, but now not so much.
Thanks !
Rob Cohen
s/v SOAVE
NS33 #009
Westport, CT
The manual does have the measurements for all parts of the topping lift but in the case of my Botts’ sail the standard length was too long. With the standard length the blocks would hit before the boom was high enough to properly set the reef. Another 26 owner in the Toronto area had purchased a sail from Botts at the same time and had the same issue. Shortening the standing part of the topping lift solved the problem. Of course the safety pigtail need to be lengthened. I also have a 4:1 purchase on the topping lift so for each foot the topping lift was shortened I needed 4 more feet of tackle line. I also need a longer leech reef line. It is a nice sail so the changes were worth it.
Mark Powers
Have to add my 2 cents here.
The original 26C #28 topping lift that came from the factory was connected directly to the boom. There was no running part of the toping lift. The PO sailed it this way for 30 years. Makes things simple but is bad for sail shape and with the sail down the boom was at head height to the helmsman and the sail hangars would just clear the hatches.
The Mike Quill topping lift was about 3 feet shorter to make space for the blocks and raise the boom a bit higher. All good.
If you make a new topping lift out of Dyneema and make it the same length as the old one it will be too long. Dyneema has an initial stretch under load as the fibers line up and the splices squeeze tight. Called constructional elongation. After that it doesn’t stretch much anymore. This is called creep. It’s very easy to splice a new eye on deck on the bottom end if you need to shorten it.
Tom
26C #28
Penetang
Captain Greg,
Got down to the boat today. It was just light showers so I ran a tape up the mast on a halyard and stretched it back to the heel of the boom. The fixed portion of the topping lift measured between 39’ and 40’. Sorry can’t be more accurate than that at this time. I would go with 39’.
Mark Powers
Thanks Mark!
Greg Silver
Misty Cat 26C #121
St. Peter’s, Cape Breton
Nova Scotia
Captain Greg,
Please let us know how that length compares to your current toppinglift.
One thing we have not discussed is the concept used on the 324. On the 324 the second halyard is used as the topping lift. As far as I am aware it does not used blocks/purchase but instead relies upon a cabinet top winch. I have not figured out good way to rig a safety with that system. If it is used in combination with a rope clutch it is possible to tie a stopper knot in the line that will hit the rope clutch before the boom comes down too far. It is generally used with polyester or core dependant line. One advantage is that you do not have blocks and tackle slapping the leech of the sail.
I do not have a second halyard so have not been able to try that solution. Bob Neches had a 26 with an aluminium mast and the standard topping lift arrangement and now owns a 26 with a carbon fibre mast that uses a second halyard as the topping lift. Maybe he can provide his views on the relative merits of each system. (Lots of social pressure being applied Bob).
Mark Powers
If you still want a saftey just end for end what you have now. The topping lift line now runs over the second sheave and down the mast rather than down the boom. The blocks and saftey strop are at the top instead of the bottom. Now there’s less weight at the end of the boom and less friction.
Tom
26C #28
Penetang