Paul: Looking at your photo, I noticed that you run your dock lines through the chock. Try using the Sampson post instead as it’s faster, easier and less wear and tear on the line.
Regards,
Joe Valinoti
S/V iL Gatto NS30U #221
Sea Harbour YC
Oriental, NC USA
Food for thought Joe. It’s an old photo. I now have chafe guards on the lines. They stay on the cleats when I’m out and I use the Sampson post for anchoring.
We all have our ways I guess.
The preparation advice is duly noted and appreciated, however -
preparation appears to have nothing to do with the charge for unstepping/stepping the mast at the yard. I would of course lower the boom and disconnect the wiring, retaining bolts and tie-down cable myself (as I don’t trust them to do it properly, and I have done it previously) and the reverse for stepping.
The yard manager quoted a flat rate to do this:
“Current rate to step and unstep mast is $38 per ft up to 40Ft. After 40ft it is $42 per ft.” The $38 charge appears to include storage (for how long, it doesn’t say)… if storage isn’t involved the 38 rate drops to $22 - but then what is done with the mast for a day or three?
Mast is approximately 54ft (ok, maybe 53…) - 40x38 + 14x42 = $2066
Still $1500 with the lower rate.
Back to the bulkhead/deck cutting question - I tried to contact Mark Ellis through his website contact form, but it doesn’t appear to send… so I left him a voicemail this morning requesting his input on the situation. Will update this thread when I hear back from Mark
Again, thanks to all!
Peter Grabow
S/V CAKE WALK III
1987 30U 430
Jersey City, NJ
Peter,
If you need the exact length, the “extrusion height” of an original N30 mast (i.e., the as-built length, not including any additional fixtures on top like antennae, wind vanes, etc.) is 53’ 3". If anyone’s curious about the length for their boat, this is on a www.Nonsuch.org website, under the INA INFORMATION tab, MISC. BOAT DATA. All boat sizes are covered, I believe.
I was the one who got the information from Mark Ellis and posted it there, so I’d like to believe it’s reliable.
IMHO, your yard’s charging you because they can rather than because they have to. Neither the labor nor the equipment costs of what they’re being asked to do are terribly sensitive to mast size. The one factor that might be is insurance, because the replacement cost of a damaged mast certainly is size-sensitive.
On the other hand, where I live, being charged because they can is just life in the big city. It depends how much competition there is in your area.
– Bob
Me Gusta
Nonsuch e26U #233
Peter -
I have been reading your postings for quite a while, with true enjoyment. You strike me as a “mensch” (a truly good, nice guy). I believe that you moor at Liberty Landing Marina. It’s a gorgeous place and, guaranteed, not cheap.
My very personal feeling is that you are getting hosed, big time, because Nonsuch masts are disprportionately long for the LOA of the boats. Or, as Bob Neches said “because they can”. Well, maybe they can’t. You’ve spent some time there, I believe, and given them loads of cash for mooring, etc., etc. You qualify as a “loyal and valuable client”. You deserve to be cut a break as much (or more) than the next guy. In this case, you are going to do ALL of the prep both ways, in and out. If need be, you are going to patiently talk the crew through the job, in and out and basically do everything to make this “complex” job go as quickly as possible.
And, put as nicely as you’d likely put anything, you are going to be damn disappointed if the yard manager doubles down, digs his/her heels in and says “That’s it, take it or leave it”. Like a gentleman, I’d expect that you’ll be pleasant and firm and be prepared to, at least, strongly suggest that you’ll move to another location because, taking EVERYTHING into consideration, they want to charge you twice as much as they should. Right ???
You, being a good and loyal customer, are worth more to them than just what you pay. This is a two-way street. They need to be nice to you.
I’m Canadian. I live in a wonderful country and I’m only an hour away from my neighbours in another just-as-wonderful (but different) country, the USA. IMHO, we do some things better than you. And, you guys do some things better than us. This may piss off some of my fellow Canucks but I find, to overgeneralise, that the average Yank is a little more sensitive to a customer’s needs and wants than up here in the Great White North. Yes, I think you folks excel in plain, old good customer service (and the NEED for it). Therefore, I’d be really surprised if this yard manager can’t/won’t bend somewhat to the idea of cutting you a break (and a fair one at that). It sounds like 2 yardies will earn, maybe, $150.00 each for this whole job (it won’t take forever, especially with you doing 80% of the work) while the marina pockets $2K+.
Just who are they kidding ??
Go in there and make your case, sir. If they treat you right, hell, you just may stay. If they don’t, then you can contemplate being at a lovely marina where the management doesn’t have enough brains “to treat their good customers” properly.
My 4 cents - I went on WAY too long.
Ernie A. in Toronto
Thanks for the additional inputs from All!
For the most recent -
Bob - thank you for the extruded length, et al… I had found that information in the INA site, and pretty much always use 54’ (they will round up anyway) for the mast length, and 55-56’ for bridge clearance (antenna and swells)…
Ernie - as always, your input always makes me smile, and provides food for thought!
Though most of LLM (Liberty Landing Marina) is run well, the service department management needs to up their game. Not that they aren’t nice, they are, but timely? No. Caring - not really. Negotaiable - nope. The staff is great! But service management will tell you what you want to hear, and then proceed at their own pace with whatever works for them. Even showing up/calling every week doesn’t help. This is not only my experience, but everyone I know at the marina has the same concerns about them.
As noted previously, the cost, though maybe 25% less at other marinas, they are at least a 4 to 7 hour motor/sail away.
Anyway - following up;
Spoke with Mark Ellis himself this morning!! What a great person!! Got goosebumps from speaking with him!
Mark said that he does not see an issue with making a 6" access port in the bulkhead (and then closing it with a Beckson Plate to maintain some stability.
He did say to keep the opening 4" from the underside of the deck. I offered 'and the same 4" from the right side vertical of the bulkhead (where there is the support angle) and he said that was a good idea.
Mark also agreed that going thru the bulkhead would eliminate the water intrusion that could possibly occur if I fail to properly seal the Beckson plate.
So, a final decision on this has not been made, as I will re-look all the potential obstacles/hazards to this approach before proceeding. For those who mentioned not being able to hold/see the windlass unit as the bolts are secured… I will not be doing this completely alone (I hope) so it shouldn’t be an issue. As far as the difficulty seeing/placing/securing the motor below the deck, I do have an endoscope type camera that allows me to see this ‘hidden’ places.
More to come…
Peter Grabow
S/V CAKE WALK III
1987 30U 430
Jersey City, NJ
Peter - good luck with the install. I had my mast pulled this year for an inspection at Safe Harbor in Glen Cove on Long Island. Unstep mast over 50" - is T &M - $750, plus crane charge of $265. Winter storage by the foot - total of $346.67. So, for the Northeast US seacoast, your yard is basically in line with what I am seeing. And Gary Foster - who pulled his mast at the same yard (the two masts are spooning together in the mast shed) - please don’t tell me you got cheaper rates. I will feel stupid.
As far as a deck plate or bulkhead plate - I would go with a bulkhead - it looks better in the long run.
One of my projects this winter is to put a light in my mast compartment, running the wiring from the forward handing locker light. I needed a new light in the hanging locker and it came in a two pack. A light in the mast compartment will save me from holding a flashlight in my mouth since I can never find my headlamp when I need it. While you are playing around in that area, you might think about it.
lloyd herman
Rendezvous, 30U
Port Washington, NY
We have to be fair about this, guys. I was a member of wonderful Etobicoke Yacht Club in Toronto, for years. Like most clubs, it is a self-help organization. Except for the professional crane operators, worth their weight in gold, I might add, all of us did all of the work for launch, haulout and, of course, masts. We have a mast crane. We had the same mafia come out year after year, just like what likely occurred at Bruce’s club (6 -8 at the mast crane and another dozen to wheel the masts away and store them on racks). Seriously knowlegable gang at the mast crane - tons of experience. My mast popped out like a bad tooth, in around 5 minutes. Another guy’s mast on his NS 26 took only minutes more. In truth, stepping the darn things took only minutes more than unstepping.
It was a beautifully oiled machine. A treat to watch. And, like Bruce, I paid squat for it. With a 22’ boat (LOA without pulpit - no anchor sticking out the front or swim platform out the back), my full costs per year, the whole she-bang, came to around $2500.00. And, EYC has 350 boats, mostly sail, good fully equipped docks and two clubhouses (small- dry sail and big - boats in the water).
Yes, you have to do 30 works hours per year. And you must pay around ??? $4000. initiation fees (not refundable) and $6000. in debentures (refundable upon leaving but with no interest). This differs a lot, club to club.
All of this is opposed to a marina, where ya pays and pays and pays … but, you have no obligations and it’s full $ervice. The nicer the marina and the locale, arggghhhh … the more ya pays. I believe that Peter’s marina is truly lovely and it’s spectacularly located in a VERY pricey area. Therefore, he pays. For everything. The only bummer is when ya pays and ya don’t get decent service. THAT is an issue. I must say that the service is excellent at both really big marinas in the Toronto area, as I’ve observed what goes on and how well the chores are handled. It’s not New York up here. Mast unstepping and stepping runs $7.00 or $8.45 per foot of LOA. Six months winter storage on the mast rack costs $215.00. Peter’s mast would cost $942.76, without storage, out and back in. He’d probably cut a deal to store it for week or two for $50.00. The work would be done safely and correctly.
I was not “involved” with my club. I care about it and, in general, did about 50 hours per year of work (mostly two weekends for launch and haulout and other bits and bobs). Job done - obligations fulfilled. I have many buddies at the club but you’re either “involved” or simply not - just a regular member with a boat. A nice thing about a club is that we all have to be good boys and girls and behave ourselves and be respectful - no loutishness (or petty or major crime). That is certainly not the case at marinas, no matter how pretty they may be. Also, depending on the club, there is usually a limit on monster-sized power boats and their size.
But, I have a distinct feeling that, in Peter’s neck of the woods, all of the clubs are old and lovely and well-established, etc. and, likely cost the earth to join and remain a member. But, at the very least, all the work would be done by caring members or a highly skilled (and caring) staff who know the boats (and the owners).
I know … I know, I sailed WAY off topic with this - mea culpa. But, like any issue that involves $$$$, things get complicated and are not black and white. Not everyone sails out of New York Harbour (or just across the river from it). I prefer clubs but that’s my preference, on Lake Ontario, where there are plentiful marina spaces and clubs, to suit everyone.
Ernie A. in Toronto
I am not too far from Peter at Keyport Yacht club. We have about 150 boats here.
Generally, for all the clubs around here there are no repair facilities for the members so you must go to a marina.
My club allows you at the dock for 4 hours to make repairs overnight if it is an emergency.
The same for pulling the boats and winter storage you must go to a marina and pay for it.
That is all standard here I assume like everything else for some insurance reason.
My “WINTER” marina is liberal and lets you make whatever repairs you want while on the hard.
If you breakdown during sailing season SeaTow or boatUS brings you back to them.
They do not have crane for the mast pulling. They call a rigger that brings his cherry picker on trailer.
You pay from the time he starts loading it on the trailer till the time he gets home.
Also, it is like buying gas everyone knows what everyone else in the area is charging.
So, you see a lot of people on ladders or bosuns chairs.
Peter Farley
Knot in a Hurry u328
Keyport NJ
The people on ladders and bosuns chairs are looking about for others at that skill level to make friends with, and to be about.
My new to me boat is up on hard and safe till spring.
Good tidings for the holidays.
Brian Cayer
Spirit~Wind
N30U 419
Deep River, CT
We usually can get two other boats to pull up next to a boat at in his slip, one on each side, and use the halyards of the two boats to hoist the mast and then lower it to the dock. Many fenders and many helpers, but it has always gone smoothly. The hard part is carrying the mast off of the dock up to a trailer.
Tim in STL
White O’morn NS e26U #216
Harbor Point Yacht Club
West Alton, MO
I’m beginning to think that us guys and girls up here are taking an AWFUL lot for granted. Like mast cranes … I once used the mast crane (rated for 1000 lbs.) to lift out the diesel on my Carter 30. Worked like a charm.
Most clubs have them. We, at EYC, would be sunk without the mast crane.
Ernie A. in Toronto
I think that’s a great idea, Tim. Do you have any photos??
Joe Valinoti
S/V iL Gatto NS30U #221
Sea Harbour YC
Oriental, NC USA
I think Tim’s idea is totally nuts, but perhaps that is the retired insurance defense attorney still in me talking.
You have potential physical damage to all three vessels, as well as those near by, if something goes wrong, and potential injury or worse to the participants and those near by. Who do you think is going to pay if a halyard slips and you drop a Nonsuch mast into another boat, injuring one or more people aboard? The owners of all three vessels will end up paying. You might even find the carriers attempting to deny coverage - before you join in such an effort, maybe ask your carrier if your coverage handles any mishaps.
I am also surprised that any marina would allow you to pull a mast like that - by allowing it, their coverage is also exposed, although they would sue the three vessel owners assuming they did not already have the owners list them as an additional insured on their policies.
There is a reason why cranes are used and they are run by professionals. Yes, it might cost more, but if there is a mishap, the crane owner is the one footing the bill, not you. Drop a mast into an expensive boat and cause serious injury or death to the owner who (having an expensive boat) may have great earning potential - not good. Curtail that earning potential and, in the US at least, you are now looking at a potential eight figure judgment - and that is to the left of the decimal.
I will pay the yard.
lloyd herman
Rendezvous, 30U
Port Washington, NY
Sorry to admit, Lloyd, but the last time I heard of a mast dropping was in a commercial boat yard. Groups of people all over the world work together to help each other - whether it’s pulling a rig or un-grounding a vessel. That’s why i like the boating community.
Joe Valinoti
S/V iL Gatto NS30U #221
Sea Harbour YC
Oriental, NC USA
I actually think that Lloyd, Tim and Joe ALL have a good point to make.
I once overheard a businessman telling a lawyer that the lawyer’s job was to identify the risks, and his own job was to decide which ones to take. I’ve always tried to have a bit of that lawyer and a bit of that businessman in my head.
It is extremely important in boating to know yourself, your boat, and the environment, and choose your actions based on a thoughtful and informed evaluation of each.
Thus, it’s useful to know what other people do, but an individual decision what to do with it – keeping in mind that you, your boat, and your situation, may or may not match a particular example.
I’d trust Joe and Tim to pull my boat’s mast in this fashion. If they were relying on me to help with theirs, on the other hand, then I’d advise them that they’d be a lot safer going to a yard.
– Bob
Me Gusta
Nonsuch e26U #233
I went through a similar debate when I installed my Maxwell RC8-8 vertical windlass with capstan.
I opted to go with the deck plate for access for two reasons: (photos in the link below)
I did mount the solenoid inside the cabinet and the thermal breaker on the bulkhead, seen in the photo with my dog on the bed. I ran 2/0 along the port side of the boat.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/Ly6DwDJjbLmzQuoH6
Matt Hidinger
Nonsense 30U #509
Seattle, WA
Matt,
Nice work, both the installation and the documentation.
Brian
Brian Cayer
Spirit~Wind N30U 419
Deep River, CT
Hi Matt,
Thank you for your input. That was very helpful, as are the photos! Nice job! Most of what you did is on my list of how to proceed, that is reassuring.
After reviewing the photos and your input, I have some questions… I hope not too many for the discussion (hoping they will be useful to others contemplating this project):
Why did you select 2/0 instead of 2AWG (as recommended in the Maxwell installation instructions)? was it to get closer to only 3% loss? Maxwell’s guidance of 2AWG states for under 10% drop-off?
a) how many feet did you need?
I measured today feeding a ‘fish tape’ with a messenger line (left the messenger in place to use to pull the cables through) using the same path you took and it came out to 30-32ft, so I am planning on purchasing 35’ of each cable, so in case I have to adjust the path I won’t end up a foot short. My batteries are aft of my engine, pretty much under my feet when at the helm.
What is your battery set-up… i.e. AGM, LiFePo4, or good old LA (lead acid wet), and how may AH in your batt?
My start batt is 90AH (LA) and my (original) alternator is only 50amp… will only run the windlass when the engine is running but there is some concern that there may not be enough power. Currently (no pun intended) I can tie my house bank (around 220AH of LA) together with the start battery to be sure but eventually will be converting the house bank to LiFePo4s and tying them to the LA battery presents issues.
From your photos and videos you obviously were in the anchor chain locker forward of the mast, but with the mast in… how did you get in there?! I used to be able to do it, but as I have gotten older my flexibility is a bit off, and so is my daring… If I could get in there, or find someone competent that I trust to slide in there, then the access ports either in the deck or the bulkhead become unnecessary!
The plinth you made is beautiful! How thick is it? looks to be about 2". What wood did you use? I am considering IPE or Iroko as was suggested by others on this thread.
I calculated 2 inches to safely clear the deck’s lip (at the Sampson post) to run straight to the lower roller position. Your set up looks very similar to mine.
and importantly - did you buy the Standard or the Extended Deck version?
a) If you have the Standard, did you have enough room to secure the locking ring for the gearbox or did the deck cause issues?
The EDV unit appears to have a longer gearbox which would easily clear the deck/plinth combination).
b) The standard bolts appear to only be around 2 1/2"… the EDV unit comes with 6 1/2" bolts… did you need to replace some or all of the bolts (with deck about 1 1/2’ thick at that spot, and the plinth being 2", Standard unit’s bolts seem too short), and if yes, what did you use?
Sorry about all of these questions, and I know each boat is slightly different and I will adjust as I go along if needed, but want to be as prepared as possible.
If you prefer to not answer all of these questions on the group, please feel free to email me directly.
Many thanks (and again to all who have given input!)!
Peter Grabow
S/V CAKE WALK III
1987 30U 430
Jersey City, NJ