Considering electric conversion

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“Lithium batteries” is an umbrella term for several different types, all of which contain Lithium, but which differ in the other elements used in their chemistry.

Lithium IRON PHOSPHATE – or maybe it’s Potassium, I can never remember – is abbreviated as LiFEPo4., is the newest type in contrast to the the better-known LiON batteries you see in laptops and the like. LiFEpo4 is generally regarded as much more fire-safe than previous technologies. I don’t have it at my fingertips, but there’s a link to a BOAAT/US article to that effect in the write-up on my installation that’s in Members Tips and Projects on the www.Nonsuch.org webseite.

I explicitly informed my insurance company (Markel) that I was switching to electric, and described the configuration. They raised my rates by $30 USD / year. I never got a good explanation of the reason for that. Maybe it was increased risk. But, it could also have been for the value of the brand new installation, or simply because this gave them an excuse to raise it, or even (one can dream) the increased resale value of the boat. In any case, insurance was not an issue.

– Bob
Me Gusta
Nonsuch e26U #233

[RONALD_WEBER]

Hey Bob,

Thank you for that input. I am with Progressive so I hope they would be as accommodating. What I have been considering is only LIFEPo4 batteries. These batteries containing their own BMS are widely used in other applications such as golf carts and trolling motors as well as industrial equipment so I would think they have been thoroughly tested in the real world and the hazard of “run away” isn’t widely considered as a serious hazard for these batteries.

Ron Weber
N22 Magic Time
Punta Gorda Fl

[RONALD_WEBER]

So far it has been a real education and enlightening conversation. With the guidance of fellow Nonsuch owners I have ingested a wealth of information about electric propulsion in our vessels. Someone addressed the issue of enhanced resale with electric propulsion and my thoughts are that a new electric motor is far more reliable than a 35–40-year-old diesel which may have had questionable maintenance over it’s lifetime. So when you decide to sell your beloved vessel you may have to educate a potential buyer. It’s a technology still in it’s infancy for marine applications but I think because of the current EV automotive market folks are being convinced of it’s benefits. I just hope I don’t get “rolling coaled” by some errant diesel boat owner.

Ron Weber
N22 Magic Time
Punta Gorda Fl

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About resale. I don’t know how other buyers would react, but I think a quality electric installation is worth a lot.
When I was looking to buy a Nonsuch, I actually kind of hoped I’d run across a really nice one with a trashed engine so I could justify and afford to convert to electric. My motivation was as much for the quiet running as for the lower maintenance and confidence that it will always start when I need it. (As long as I keep it charged, which can also apply to keeping the fuel tank full.)
Of course it’s all hypothetical, but if I had found two comparable boats, one with diesel in good condition and one with a well done electric installation I would probably have paid a premium for the electric.
What actually happened is that I got a boat with a diesel that appears to be in good condition and which is entirely boxed in with sound deadening material. It’s still louder than electric, but is tolerable. So I guess I’m probably stuck with it forever.

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I recall one of the INA electric owners saying that he’d bought his sight unseen BECAUSE it was already electric.

However, I don’t think we’ve got enough data to know impacts on resale value yet.

My expectation is that there’s a smaller pool of more enthusiastic buyers, but it’s not clear yet what that means for how much one gets or how long it takes.

My hope is that this will be my estate executor’s problem rather than mine.

– Bob
Me Gusta
Nonsuch e26U #233

[RONALD_WEBER]

Well Bob, you and Brian have expressed some optimistic views but I do like your “don’t sweat the small sh*t” approach. ;- )

Ron Weber
N22 Magic Time
Punta Gorda Fl

[user11]

The response I got from the insurance company back in 2007 when I told them I was going to change my Nonsuch to electric propulsion was “YOU"RE GOING TO DO WHAT?” At least today insurance companies have gotten use to boats with electric propulsion. Though I think it a little outrageous they would raise you rates even $30.00. Especially since you’ve eliminated the liability of a fuel and oil spill by going electric. Meanwhile in New Zealand an all electric commercial tugboat made it’s debut last year. :
https://youtu.be/Rj305HdU46c?si=Y-WKwZgEBiAK4SZp

Mike
BIANKA
1986 30U
Long Island

[Tim_Cordes]

Here’s an update on my progress with some pictures.

I painted the engine tunnel with two coats of Rustoleum enamel:

No more diesel smell, but a strong odor of enamel paint drying now. In the lower photo you can see the 1x12 plank I used to bridge over the prop shaft and flange from the engine stringers. It works really well and I have almost 2 inches clearance above the flange when I wriggle in and out.

Cut and shaped a 3/4" Birch plywood battery shelf for starboard to match the port shelf. This will be coated with epoxy, tabbed to the hull with chopped strand mat and 8" wide 8 oz. fiberglass cloth tape, and supported inboard with 2X2 cleats underneath. It also slopes slightly inboard for drainage.

I decided to put buss bars to connect the port and starboard batteries on the starboard plate glassed to the transom that previously supported the strap clamp holding the exhaust hose in place. I’ll need to add the negative engine cable to the top buss bar, and add the negative and positive wires from the battery charger to the top and bottom bus bars, but I will still have a couple lugs free on each if I add more batteries later. In the middle is the 250A fuse for the positive motor lead. (I’m really annoyed that I ran out of red heat shrink for the starboard battery lug lower left.)

I ran the 2/0 ga cables across the transom by attaching wire clamps to the ends of the transom ladder bolts with new 1/4x20 stainless nylock nuts, and added two final wire clamps to the port plate glassed to the transom that supports the strap clamp holding the bilge pump hose.

QUESTION FOR BOB AND TIM: Since you both did the Electric Yacht install, did you just use 12 ga wire from the Delta Q IC1200 charger? The length of my proposed wire run will just be the length of the starboard laz from the bulkhead to the transom, so about 6 feet, but I don’t know the amperage it puts out.

Tim Cordes
Nonsuch 26C #32 “ENCORE”
Ford Yacht Club, Grosse Ile, Michigan

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TIm, I used 10ga because that is what I had and bigger never hurts. They did not have the Delta Q IC1200 charger when I bought so they substituted the Quiq 1500 charger. Be careful on where and how you install the charger, our Quiq 1500 has indicator lights that tell you the state of charge and the charging status, had I installed this in a different location I would be able to view those lights without having to hang down into the lazarette. I don’t know if the Delta Q has lights like that or not.
Your install is looking good so far, congrats.

Tim in STL
White O’morn NS e26U #216
Harbor Point Yacht Club
West Alton, MO

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Tim,

Both of you Tims with your shiny white repaints are making me hang my head in shame. My engine compartment started out looking like an engine compartment, and still does. You guys’ repaints make it look like you could eat off your floors.

It looks like you’re doing a beautiful, and extremely well-thought-out, job.

I do have a DeltaQ and used whatever size wire they spec’ed. I don’t have it in front of me, but if you say they spec’ed 12 gauge, then that’s what I used. It looked tiny compared to the 2/0 used elsewhere, and I’m still wrapping my head around the idea that this scrawny-looking wire will do the job. My installation had a very short run, though, so I’d lean toward upsizing if you’re worried about it. It certainly does no harm.

The layout of Classic and Ultra are a bit different, so what I did for the charger may not work for you. I put it on the port bulkhead just inside the engine compartment as accessed from the interior. On the Ultra, that places it higher than you can do on a Classic because that’s the exterior of the aft of the refrigerator compartment rather than there being a quarterberth in the cabin. My Classic had cut-throughs on both sides of the engine compartment so that you (or at least maybe some child of Gumby’s) could (in theory) “access” various Westerbeke fittings.

I do agree with Tim in STL that you’ll really want to place the charger somewhere that makes it easy to check its status lights. My recollection of where I had my house battery charger on my first 26 (which was a Classic), was that it was about where you’re planning to put your 48v charger. I could read its display sort of ok by leaning deep in through the starboard locker from the cockpit. When I needed to check it, I usually ended up having to hold my phone camera down there to take a picture and then looking at the picture.

I don’t have a brilliant suggestion off the top of my head for where would be best on a Classic because I’d need to look at one to refresh my memory. Maybe there’s enough room forward of the quarterberth access panels? Otherwise, I doubt you can do better than where you’ve already chosen to put it.

Small side issue: it looks in your picture like the now-unnecessary engine raw water intake at the front of your compartment has a gate valve rather than a ball valve for shutting it off. I don’t have bragging rights on this topic, because all I did was wiring my ball valve lever in the closed position and put a plug above it as a second level defense. But, gate valves don’t have great reputations, so I hope you’re taking lots of precautions to ensure that through-hull is really well protected against water coming through.

– Bob
Me Gusta
Nonsuch e26U #233

[Tim_Cordes]

Bob,

The new paint is nice, and it has eliminated any diesel smell, but it really highlights all the leaves that come in the laz when I open them to work below. Oh well, the tree next door is almost bare now.

I don’t love the gate valve either, but I don’t want to buy a new through hull fitting when I’m not sure if I will ever use it for anything. Being on the cradle right now, It’s no big deal, but I will have to figure out a way to have a trustworthy cap on it before I do sea trials. I also need a solution for the exhaust port. It seems like there is 5200 on the fitting, and I can’t budge the hose stub off the end. I might just cut the whole thing off with an angle grinder. I was thinking of just covering the hole from the outside with a disk of stainless (Amazon sells precut disks of 304) and then using a lot of Bed-It butyl tape. It’s above the waterline, but will probably get submerged in following seas. I don’t think it would be worth glassing and gelcoating to try to match the transom finish - even if I felt like I had the skills, which I don’t. Maybe I could just cut a circle out of G10 and epoxy it over the hole.

Bob - You’re right that my 12v charger is on the aft side of the buklhead at the end of the starboard quarter berth. That’s where the 120v shore power line leads to, and I thought I’d just put a waterproof junction box and tie the shore power and both chargers together there. Going to Tim’s point, though, that means I will only see the display if I stick my head down the laz or use the cell phone camera trick. (Heck, I use that all the time just so I can magnify small print on things that are out in the open) I have space on the bulkhead outboard of the laz opening so the cooling fan will be less likely to get rained on, but it is tempting to move it forward into a more protected and accessible location in the engine bay as Tim suggested.

Tim - I wish I had “extra” spools of 10 ga just lying around, but I only have 12 ga. With the conversion costs mounting, I think I might just go with 12 ga, unless I do move the charger forward. That would probably justify spending more money for the 10 ga wire since it would be a longer run.

I decided to cut the ends of the controller cables and run them up through the pedestal, like Tim, so I’ll have to crimp on all new connectors and get my fat fingers into that tiny box, but they came up pretty easily when they were taped to the old throttle and shifter cables. It does make for a neat install on deck. I want to see if I can find a rubber grommet that will fit the old throttle lever hole so I can make it a bit more watertight.

I wimped out on changing the steering cables. I looked at them very closely and they seem to be in really good shape - plus the eye bolt is currently a swage fitting and I didn’t think I could be as neat making new ones up with the saddle clamps in the kit. Tim - you and I both will have to sweat it out over “invisible stress cracks” for the foreseeable future. I’ll let you know how the emergency tiller works if I guessed wrong.

Tim Cordes
Nonsuch (soon to be e)26C #32 “ENCORE”
Ford Yacht Club, Grosse Ile, Michigan

[BRIAN_CAYER]

Tim C
We have a golf cart that seemed to inexplicably drive up into our yard when it was most needed.
It was what we could afford at the time, and a blessing as well.
It came with the original 48v charger .
We charge it with an 15’ extension cord, 12ga most likely, maybe less.
It works as expected.
No Worries!
Brian

Brian Cayer
SV Spirit~Wind N30U 419
Deep River, CT

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Hi Ron,
My Minou (NS30) was converted in 2019 to electric in a boat yard on Georgian Bay when I was seeing a variety of small issues with the Westerbeke becoming big ones. The motor that was installed on the recommendation of a dealer in Nova Scotia is a 14kw Lynch Motor Company from the UK and batteries 2x3500W Lithium XXX 48 V torquedoes. I believe there may be a connection between the LMC and the Thoosa origins.

What I didn’t learn until later was that my electric motor is not happy with a folding or feathering prop, so this spring I installed a fixed Michigan ‘sailor’ prop and performance results are much better. With the folding/feathering prop reverse would just not work and the motor would stall. I was told that this is a problem common to all electric motors, but I haven’t confirmed that. If anyone is interested I have both an old Autoprop and a Kiwi feathering prop for sale.

A dockside test where I let the motor run until the batteries were depleted (about 2&1/2 hours) suggested a range of 14-15NM @ 4.1kts. A slower speed would give me further range. I used to carry a honda generator just in case but that was sold as I gained confidence.

We got struck by lightning in 2020 and everything was replaced (thank you insurance) at a second boat yard, so between that and covid I have really only starting using the electric configuration this summer. And I love it: quiet, clean, easy to maintain. I had some issues at the start of the summer and the team in England walked me through servicing over the phone.

If I was doing it again, I would consider the torqeedo battery and sail-drive unit as an alternative but other manufacturers in the market look to offer excellent products which I think are only going to become better and more widely used in future.

Good luck.

[system]

TIm,

Re the gate valve, a good plug is probably good enough.

Re the exhaust thru-hull: all I did was leave it there with enough hose on the interior side to raise it well above the water line. Then, like the raw water intake, I put a plug in it. Here’s a fuzzy picture:

As this illustrates, I’m a “good enough is good enough,” kinda guy.

– Bob
Me Gusta
Nonsuch e26U #233

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It might be a little late but there is a YouTube channel called “Sailing Uma” that just posted video #367 about converting to electric propulsion. They make a lot of good points based on their experience with their electric motor.

Bill Mortensen
NSU 30 #335
Noank, CT

[RONALD_WEBER]

Bill,

That is the benchmark amongst the Youtube sailing related videos. One key point they made was that they started on a shoe string budget by locating a boat that had no functioning engine - along with other problems. They cobbled together an electric propulsion system which I believed was based on a golf cart motor, and later were gifted a new system from Ocean Volt. Their ingenuity and willingness to do their own research and labor should be an inspiration to all of us sailors. I think an important message is that this couple with a vision of the future chose the arena of sailing to pursue that vision.

I am in the process of converting my N22 to electric, and was so happy to remove all those diesel things from my boat. Maybe I should put it in a big pile and take a picture for my scrap book alongside other memories from my sailing past like RDF navigation. With the elimination of Loran and paper charts by the government and the constant evolution of sailing electronics it’s with a deep gratitude that we now have better options for propulsion systems. It’s been a long while since diesel replaced galley slaves and steam and I welcome the future.

To the nay sayers that always emphasize range limits I remind you that our vessels are sailboats that were designed primarily for wind power. Mine will be a hybrid using both wind and electric.

I just started installation today of the new system and will post on the INA group as I make progress.

Ron Weber
N22 Magic Time
Punta Gorda Fl

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Very Nice video series

Go right to 4 minute mark for the “real start”

[

Ditch the Diesel: Electric Sailboat Conversion Tips & Tricks | Step 367 youtu.be

](https://youtu.be/eOzJtrpJ_Q4?si=Kjoyr9h49eWzN0jS)

Helen Dakin
N33 #7 Sashay
Collins bay in kingston Ontario

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Hi Ron - First, no problem with going electric from me. Just a pat on the back for figuring out your usage requirements and shutting out the noise.

Sailing Uma started with a forklift motor, and went from there. The guy grew up somewhere in BC, and obviously learnt how to “bodge” (in a good way) when a kid, as he problem solves well. Kudos to them. One of their first videos, they stated that if they had to anchor and wait out tides, no problem, they are in no rush.

I’ve got an electric outboard (an E-Propulsion unit) that we love - quiet, comes apart for ease of moving and storage, no gas to worry about. It does take overnight 110v plugging-in to recharge, so when we are away from shore-power for a while, I do envy (sometimes) those who “recharge” their outboards in about 10 seconds from the gas-can.

I think that the power/weight of lithium vs. diesel fuel is something like 40:1, which is a huge reason why we’ll not be seeing an electric Boeing 777 soon, and why some boats will remain diesel.

I think we all forget that the Pardys sailed the world without an engine, Donald Street, of the Transatlantic guides, sailed the world without an engine, and even the International 14 that I had decades ago did not have an engine.

Please keep telling us how it goes. - John NS26C 046 Bath ON.

[Tim_Cordes]

Latest updates:

Glassed in port battery shelf

Cut off exhaust stub with angle grinder and laid in 4 layers of fiberglass and epoxy

Installed aft and outboard battery cleats and batteries

Wired 48v charger to buss bars

Wired new 30A breaker from shore power to 12v and 48v battery chargers

Installed 48v charger and current sensor

After this, all I have to do is install the QT10 motor mounts, align the prop shaft coupler, crimp new ring terminals on the cockpit control cables, and install the controller lever and display. I’m hoping I can do all that next weekend, so I can shut up the boat and have it shrinkwrapped until sea trials next spring. It’s starting to get kind of chilly in the boatyard. I picked the last day in the low 60s to do my fiberglass work, but now it rarely gets over 50 at the boat all day.

Tim Cordes
Nonsuch (soon to be e)26C #32 “ENCORE”

Ford Yacht Club, Grosse Ile, Michigan

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Looking good, Tim!

– Bob
Me Gusta
Nonsuch e26U #233