Electric Halyard Winch

Been sailing Fat Cat, 30C, Hull #4 for the last year in southern Lake Huron and thoroughly enjoy the Nonsuch sailing experience.

While my wife an I generally can get out together to sail, which makes the sail raising fairly easy with myself at the mast and her tailing the halyard from the helm and holding it until I get back to add wraps on the winch and pull it up the last couple inches, I have had the odd occasion where I would like to be able to go out alone. I have asked and successfully attained other crew but that is not the point, I kind of want to get out there alone.

I am relatively young and fit compared to the demographic that seems to be your stereotypical “Nonsuch Owner” and have little problem raising the sail to within a couple feet of the top from the cockpit(after rerouting the halyard to eliminate as much friction as possible, and I can sweat it to the top quite easily(so long as the helmsman steers to the wind). Don’t anyone take offense to the demographic reference please, I feel I am simply stating a fact, not slinging derogatory rhetoric, I stand to be corrected.

I have searched and read through a number of discussions regarding making raising the main easier and know I could install the reverse cleat set up on the mast, I could use a 90-degree cordless drill with the winchrite bit, or get an electric winch installed in the cockpit.

I am slightly sensitive to cost, and was thinking this through and would like opinions on this potential solution.

Since the sail is quite easy to raise from the mast(sweating it up) I think any 90 degree turns and running the halyard through fairleads just adds friction points and that is why it is more difficult to raise from the cockpit. My idea is to use a fairly inexpensive ATV winch equipped with spectra or dyneema line to raise main, and to mount the winch below decks clamped to the mast. This would require a pass through on the mast, but at a height that should not decrease the integrity of the spar. This setup would have only the block at the masthead to run the halyard over and with the use of a double mast block, there should be very little mechanical resistance in raising the sail.

I have pondered this for a while and can think of some drawbacks/potential safety concerns

  • no physical halyard access

  • determining the tension on the halyard

  • must remove and replace winch when stepping the mast

  • fairly tight quarters to access the winch if issues arise
    On the positive side

  • one less line on deck/to cockpit

  • easy effortless sail raising

  • no added clutter to topsides
    I am sure one could set a limit on the winch by limiting amperage to the appropriate amount of force required to raise the main. One would need to ensure that the holding ability/mechanism/brake on the winch was capable of holding the tension without damaging the winch motor/transmission assembly.

I had originally been looking at captive winches which appear to only let you use 1 wrap on the drum? The largest one for a small boat would only accept 48 ft of line, which is a little short for the halyard on the 30C.

One caveat is that these winches do not hold enough line until you get to a 9500 lb unit. Again, limiting amperage would reduce the risk of damage, but this is a real possibility with any electric winch.

I am just looking for opinions, further ideas concerning this type of winch.

Mark Richards
Fat Cat, 30C, Hull#4

Oh Boy !!

This is gonna be goodie, Mark. First, NO ONE would take offence to your diplomatically and gently-put (and pretty accurate) remarks regarding the “demographics” of Nonsuchers. In plain talk, i have heard them called “lazy man’s boats” or “old man’s boats’” a lot. And that further insults all the "lazy’ or “old” WOMEN who skipper them. They don’t even get a mention !!

To the subject at hand, I am one of the many who solved the sail-raising problem (or bad back/shoulder problem) with a small Hilti drill and a winch bit. That equipment cost me around $500.00 CAD. Apparently, other decent drills exist for less money that can also do this job. Exhaustive reading of this bulletin board will yield more answers. It’s ALL about how much torque the drill has. Nice to have at least 800 inch-pounds. And, I have to collapse my dodger as I don’t have the headroom under it for the drill - it’s not an expensive right-angled model. But, I always collapse the dodger to sail. If it starts to rain, I can raise the dodger once the sail is up. And, of course, drop the sail (or reef) with the dodger up.

Part of my own “fun” with my N22 is coming up with out-of-the-box, unorthodox i.e. cockamamie ideas for making the the whole process easier, quicker, less-injurious, maybe cheaper, etc.

However, for many of the reasons that you articulate, I feel that your vessel (and you) are way better served by having your halyard running above your deck and coachroof as opposed to buried under it while running on an ATV winch. This idea requires surgery, possible holes or bolts into the mast or ???, some money spent and, sadly, stuff happening on your boat that you can’t see or feel. That, I feel, is a recipe for you-know-what.

It would be best if you can raise and tighten that sail solely from the cockpit. It’s just “the better way”. And, it’s just about simple physics.

You are correct (in my opinion) to run the halyard straight from the turning block on the base of the mast right to the halyard winch. That eliminates friction. So … the solution could lie in a bigger manual winch (or one with a 3rd speed). This would make the job twice as easy and fast. It would become a pleasure instead of a task to dread. It could be found on Ebay, used and, maybe not too expensive.

Or … (back to high school physics) … you just need a LONGER winch handle. Huh !!! Think about it. It works. In addition to my drill, etc., I have an 8" winch handle that a buddy welded up an extension for. The handle is now a 26’ winch handle that I use with my #16 single-speed Lewmar ST halyard winch. Yup, it’s cumbersome and long and gets in the way but I can stretch that luff drum-tight with one finger and a bum shoulder (albeit slowly… crank …crank …crank… crank). I use it for the last foot or two.

If I really cared about doing the job masterfully, my sail would have a cunningham to stretch the bottom.

There are safe and sound solutions that don’t require motors, etc. to this problem. I’ve included a couple of photos. As I said, it’s all about physics.

Good luck.

Ernie A. in Toronto

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Hi Mark - Ernie again.

I forgot to mention - If a 26’ winch handle is too long and cumbersome, one can go with an 18" inch handle extension. It’s still WAY more “persuasive” than a standard 10’ handle. And, these LONG handles can be stowed and only used for this very purpose.

Ernie A. in Toronto

Mark: I can’t think of anything simpler or less expensive then the cam cleat on the mast. Of course, I’m assuming you do have an autopilot to keep you in the wind when alone. I’m lucky in that my boat came with an electric halyard windless which I rarely use unless I’m alone.
Joe Valinoti
S/V IL Gatto NS30U #221
Sea Harbour YC
Oriental, NC USA
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And the magic words (as uttered by Joe) are “unless I’m alone”. (Tho … “electric halyard windlass” helps, too.)

Of course, if you are raising the sail at the mast, a cam cleat is essential.

Ernie A. in Toronto

I single-hand frequently on the Hudson River (Tappan Zee section). We can get a fair amount of wind, but seas are generally flat, but sometimes get to 2’+ (at least no more, when I go out).

On Sheba (Nonsuch 30C) the set up is main halyard runs to the cockpit: 90 degree turn at the base of the mast, through a fairlead, through rope clutch to the winch. The winch is a self-tailing, 2-speed, electric winch. I have a Tides SailTrack. And I have an autopilot. On the way down, sail drops effortlessly and completely. Hoisting requires a bit more effort.

First, let me say, I really value having all lines led aft tot the cockpit. I’m on a mooring, so I only have to leave the cockpit to remove the sail cover, attach the main halyard to the sail, and ready and release my mooring lines. And, when I’m alone I always wear a PFD whenever I leave the cockpit (or try to), even when it’s very calm. We have a tidal current of 1 knot, and quite a few tales of sailors at our club falling overboard, and being separated from their boats.

After pointing into the wind and setting the autopilot, I do most of my mainsail hoist by hand, with a couple turns around the winch, relying on the rope clutch to prevent any back-sliding. I can get the sail up without employing the winch until the last 2 to 4 feet. At that point, I usually take another two wraps around the winch, lock in the self-tailer, and either use a winch handle, or the electric to complete the hoist. (Since my newer sail (2018) has a full batten at the top, I’ve found those last few feet a bit harder than with my old sail).

I don’t like to use the electric to aid my hoist for two reasons:

  1. I want to be confident I can do without, if the electric fails.

  2. But more importantly, I’ve had a few times when something’s fouled on the way up (reef line, edge of sail catches wishbone, halyard caught on something, etc.). Always a foolish error on my part, but using the electric I risk not noticing the problem before it might be too late. With the electric , there’s no “feel” like there is when raising manually (initially by hand, and then with winch handle). By the last few feet of the hoist, I’ve avoided potential snags, and the electric does a fine job completing the hoist, and with a little more effort, using the winch handle (and not electric) does just as well.
    So, for Mark, for ease and safety, would suggest you run halyard aft, rope clutch, self-tailing winch, auto pilot, and you’re all set (no powered winch required).

– Tony Martin, Sheba, #212, Nonsuch 30C, Nyack Boat Club, Nyack, NY

I agree with Tony especially his comment #2. Also, I do not get enough exercise, so the minute or so it takes to raise the sail also raises my heart and respiration rates. Not a bad thing J. Although an autohelm is key if single handing the boat

It’s obvious if something is going wrong when raising the sail by hand. If the load is abnormal there is most likely a bind, reefing line(s) not running freely, halyard wrapped around something (lights) etc. But with a power winch that sensation is lost. We had an Anderson power halyard winch and I ended up tearing the leach because of a jammed reef line. Once I noticed the cabin roof deforming; cause, halyard bind at the block at the base of the mast. The winch kept pulling with no change in sound or speed. The only indication that something was wrong was the changing shape of the cabin roof!

So, I purchased a new Anderson 2 speed winch plus a WinchRite and then removed the original Anderson winch and drive. I really like the WinchRite. Bottom line, if you insist on using a power winch be careful as they are powerful and can break things. When raising the sail, by hand, by yourself, with a crew, or using the power winch, I suggest you always watch all the lines to see that they are running freely and cognizant of the tension on the halyard as the sail goes up.

…..Ed

Ed and Marlene Brost

SaSeaCat N30U 322

Sarnia Ontario

The nice thing about my halyard winch, (actually a capstan as you can see in the photo) is that it’s not self tailing. If something fouls, you know right away as the motor changes pitch or you can feel it through the halyard in your hand.

Joe Valinoti
S/V IL Gatto NS30U #221
Sea Harbour YC
Oriental, NC USA

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(attachments)

I’m not sure that running the main halyard below deck is a good idea. How would you lower the main when you have to reef? Is this the point when you want to be going forward to lower the sail...?
I single hand my 26 NS Classic out of Mahone Bay, NS. When I purchased the boat it came with an Autohelm 3000... it doesn’t steer to the wind like the newer ones, but it holds a good course, and I could haul up the main and winch it. But, I’m 70 and have had rotator cuff surgery, so I bought a Winchrite rechargeable winch. It will raise the sail 8 times between charges.
I bought it two years ago and love it. I purchased it thru Canadian Yachting magazine for C$835. I had researched out places to buy but this was the best price I saw or have seen.
Cheers,
Ed Miller
Good Medicine NS26C
Hull 209

I find an 18" breaker bar and suitable sized socket for my winch bit provide sufficient mechanical advantage to get my sail all the way up. Doubt it would work if a didn’t have a tides track.

I am still to master the ability to raise the sail on my mooring without the boat surging forward and then jibing

Bob Dryer

“42”

30 C #170

City Island, NY

Mark, I agree with most of the comments in the other responses. I know this wasn’t the question you asked but, if you really want to solo, I would put my money into an auto-pilot before an electric winch. Not only will it allow you to hold the boat head to wind while you raise the main (by whatever fashion) but in countless other scenarios the autopilot will act as an additional crew member such as reefing, attending to fenders or lines overboard, adjusting the choker, resetting alarms, checking the bilge etc. Even with another person on board, don’t underestimate the benefit of being able to turn on the autopilot and go forward to consult with them about something rather than shout into the wind.

I have been very pleased with our CPT Autopilot - easy to install (and remove), sips power and works well in all but the worst of conditions when you would want to hand-steer anyway. http://www.cptautopilot.com/

Jim Denmark
C.A.T. 1982 Nonsuch 30C #146, lying San Carlos, SON MX

So, having read all the feedback (been in a sprayer for the last 2 days, rained out tonight) I will take the advice of those wiser than me and look for ways to reduce the friction induced by the rigging in order to allow me to raise the sail from the cockpit.

I do have autohelm(Autohelm 4000) and thanks to the generous fellow Nonsuchers in Sarnia, I have 2 back up flux compasses and 1 spare drive unit for them, as I know they are no longer supported. I have also seen in this forum the place that will 3D print replacement parts for the drive unit(rollers and such).

The reverse cleat at the mast will be the first addition(substantially less expensive than my proposal) and a new cheek block on the bottom of the mast is in order. Something else I noticed when looking at the rigging for the halyard is that the Spar fairlead collar is slightly off-center and on my boat the cheek block is attached to the collar, so if I can adjust it and get a good ball bearing cheek block installed(understanding I will likely have to drill new mounting holes and thread them - keep in mind, my cheek block is on the collar so I will not be putting new holes in the mast) I may be able to reduce the friction effects enough to pull the sail up from the cockpit without exerting much more effort than sweating it up at the mast.

I do still get lots of exercise, and the process of getting to the front of the boat to sweat it up is more the issue than the act of raising the sail. I have not been religious in fastening myself to the vessel when going forward and have yet to install the jack lines. Something I will need to address if trying to single-hand, as I would prefer my boat not sail itself away from me.

Again, thanks for the input and I will post another question regarding lifelines in a separate thread.

Do keep in mind, I am young and like to ‘tinker’ with things to make them ‘better?’. But I am experienced enough to know when not to fix that which is not really broken.

Mark, the previous owner of my boat, MISTOFFELEES, was younger and liked renovating boats. When I bought MISTOFFELEES 15 years ago there were three Nonsuch 30’s for sale at the Toronto marina. He had MiISTOFFELEES looking like the prettiest girl at the dance.

He told me the fairlead organizers from the the cabin top were in a bag inside the boat, because he removed them and filled in the holes when he redid the non-skid; because every hole in the cabin top could cause future survey failure. He also felt they added to line friction. I have a heavy #10 dacron sail and the original steel mast track. At nearly 80 years of age I can still raise my sail from the cockpit, by hand, but admittedly with great difficulty. I do plan to get a Winchright.

When you next un-step your mast you may want to check the shiv at the top. Some people have reported better results by having ball bearing shivs at both the top and bottom of the mast.

Cheers
Herb G. Huber
MISTOFFELEES 30C#91
Bridgeview Marina, Sarnia, Ontario

This fitting with two blocks at the base of the mast removed a large amount of friction on my main halyard.

It replaced the old single block fitting without any extra bolts.

Mike Quill makes them up.
Brian
NS30u
Whitby
Ontario

I am relatively new to sailing and have been sailing my Nonsuch 26c this year. I probably fit the demographic you are hinting at at age 62 and I don’t consider myself to be in particularly good shape. Here is my technique and a plan for the future. When I sail solo I check everything out before I leave the dock and spray the track and first few slides with silicone spray. This simple trick seems to ensure that the sail flies up the mast pulling it up with just one turn on the winch to the point that I can crank it up the rest of the way in about 10 seconds. My winches are properly lubed as well as any sheaves in the system. My advice would be to give it a shot solo a few times before executing your ATV winch idea. I am always amazed at what a little lube will accomplish.

Randy Gadikian,
Paisley Moon #37 NS26C
Buffalo, NY

Actually, soapy water will accomplish the same thing and it goes away when it rains unlike silicone that will build up and attract dirt.

Joe Valinoti
S/V IL Gatto NS30U #221
Sea Harbour YC
Oriental, NC USA

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I spray my track with McLube SailKote every spring whether it needs it or not. Just seems like a good time to do it. Not sure it needs it that often.

Fred Rachwitz
Concerto
NS 30 U #445
Harbor Springs, Michigan
Northern Lake Michigan

I never thought of using soapy water..

Great idea.

Thanks

Hi Joe,

I seem to have finally fixed my "sail doesn't drop like a rock" problem and replaced it with a "sail is a bear to haul up" problem ". I think that the problem originates at the base of the mast - each sail slide seems to stick and then start off with a Jerk. Seems like a good idea to try out your soapy water solution so: what soap do you use; and in what concentration? Do you use a spray bottle or just dump it down the mast track? How long does a treatment last? I figure that even if the last thing I do before untying the lines is to wet the mast track it will still have dried out completely on a nice day in the 15 to 20 minutes it takes me to get out to where I actually raise the sail.

Thanks;

Ralph Bush
1983 N26C #104
“Hyggelig”
EYC, Toronto, ON

Hi;
Have you considered switching to Strongtrack.?

I use it and the sail hoists and drops with ease.

Ed Collis
ORION VII
NS30U
Toronto