Everyone is still welcome to reply with comments or suggestions
The Goal of this effort
When a pair of us decided to start our own evaluation of Discourse, we were hoping to find an application that was able to run fully email based discussions (to not alienate current members), while also being a potentially well structured, easy to navigate forum site with a set of additional functions - a place to have existing and additional content more readily available. There are other forums in the sailing community that are places to visit. If we like a topic like “Great Ideas”, what’s the point if you can’t easily browse it?
We undertook this exploration knowing that a migration would not be easy, and no gains in terms for providing well organized and searchable content would come after switching platform and investing some effort. The questions were how well does Discourse support our basic needs and how easily can it provide additional benefits.
Deliverable:
When the topic of this initial look at Discourse came up before the INA Board, we got the following feedback:
In order to decide if Discourse is worth further consideration, the Board wants to get an overall evaluation of Discourse (from the team and the others who have used it). They also want to see some results of it’s use.
Product Overview
Discourse is described as a application that supports a “community”. It provides a forum, chat, messaging with add-ons for calendar and event scheduling. It has a rich set of parameters and controls to let you fine tune how you want to use the site. Our test was limited to its use as a forum.
Features:
Forum:
It has the expected post and reply capabilities. It has a New Topic button on the home page. One nice little feature is that as you enter the topic title, is does a search in the background for previous matching topics to avoid duplication. This may become less useful as the number of topics, and therefore false positives, increases.
When you select a topic and go to the bottom of the thread (the last posting), and can scroll up to see all of the previous activity. At the end of each posting there is a Reply button
Text input is basic but adequate - it’s like typing an email. Basic functions like headings and subheadings, lists, numbered lists, etc. are relatively easy to use. The ability to edit you post for typos even after posting is nice.
Topics are organized into groups called categories. Only a limited number of Categories were created to keep the site simple, but it could be expanded to organize topics into categories like Maintenance, Projects Underway, Improvements, Documentation, Wiki, etc.
AI
The AI capability is built in but is pretty basic. It could be used to create a topic summary for the wiki, where we could tag it for easier searching and have it point back to the full topic thread.
Search
Search capabilities are standard - you can use logical operators and restrict the search by category. If we tag posts, searching would be improved.
Wiki
Down the Road - As alluded to above, we could set up a category as our wiki with discussion thread summaries, articles, searchable documents, checklists, etc. It could work well with an on-going committment - but nothing is free.
Participation via Email
This is a sticking point and the reason we chose to look at Discourse. You can select mailing list mode to automatically receive all posts. You could then reply to posts via email. You can select whether you want to receive the full topic thread or just the most recent post.
If you opt for digest mode, you will receive daily or weekly updates, with a summary of the posts. From within a digest email, you can click Read More and go to that post within the topic. If you try to reply to a digest email, it will be bounced.
A few people who have accounts did turn on mailing list mode while others opted to receive digests or nothing.
You can create new topics by sending an email, just as you can now with Google. For simplicity, we will use one email address and have all new topics start in the General category.
Other stuff
Phone App: There is an app for iphone/andriod phones. It is just a really squished down format for the web page. It has the basic functions. Reading is what you expect. Posting, given the space available, is a not ideal.
A Review Process: The ability to set up a group of moderators and have posts put in a queue to be reviewed (e.g. wiki topics) is available but was not tested. Similarly, the ability to have a document edited by a group, with version control, was not tested.
Chat: To simplify the website, Chat was removed. It could be used for general discourse, or used by groups sharing particular interests (e.g. regional groups).
Messaging: Person to person messages, or messaging within a group, is available. To send a message to as person, you can just click on their avatar/image.
Solved: You can mark a post with a question as solved by a response.
Active Table of Contents: You can add a table of contents to a document for easier navigation.
Voting: You can have a “voting” topic with yes/no or multiple choice questions.
Historical postings
Copying over past discussions from Google when a topic resurfaces is one way to handle historical data . It takes 20-30 minutes to clean up the long thread and post it on Discourse. Following that, getting an AI summary of the topic also looks like it has some limited value. Google will remain available for - as long as it does. Alternatively, we could opt to import all 6,300 past discussions. A full migration would need to be contracted out to a consultant that knows Discourse. A rough price estimate we received, if we provide the Google export, was $1,500.
The Discourse Application Itself
The Software
Discourse is an open source application, meaning that it is in the public domain. No one owns it. It can’t be bought or go out of business. This application was developed circa 2012. It has very active developer and user communities. It supposedly has 25,000 running sites.
There are a couple of companies that offer a fully packaged solution, and other companies that will provide the hardware to run the application (hosting it) where either you support it or hire another group to support the software (install updates, install additional features that you want).
Discourse is still be actively developed, e.g. the markdown editor that we used to create and edit posts will soon be replaced by a WYSIWYG editor (now in beta testing).
The Hardware
Our instance of Discourse is a packaged solution provided by Civilized Discourse Construction Kit, Inc.. The monthly cost is $50 for the “Standard” package (that is with a 50% non-profit discount). To support a full 500 user community, where a large number of users might choose mailing list mode to receive an email for every post, the price would likely be 50% higher.
We would “own” our instance of Discourse (all the data and configuration info). At any time, we could get a full backup and move it to another site.
Admin Support
The site is currently being supported by one admin. During implementation, it will likely require at three (it would depend on how we would cutover). During normal use, probably two or three to have some overlap.
Discourse has an AI driven help desk tool at http://ask.discourse.com that provides very good first level support. The software has a lot of configuration parameters, and the “Ask” site has proven to be very useful.
You cannot create an account for someone - you send them an invitation and they have to click on a llnk to create their username and password. They then have to clink a link in their email to confirm their address. They will also have to go through a few steps to set up their user profile, which will include their vessel and location information, and their email preferences. A site admin could do the profile input for people who really can’t do it themselves after their account is working.
Evaluation of Discourse
Posting on the site is easy once you get use to the way to type in a post and do some basic formatting (if desired). The very basics are somewhat intuitive and not hard to use, like the bold, underline, etc. choices in email. Other easily available formatting includes indentation, numbered lists, headings and sub-headings. Being able to edit your post is a nice little feature. Posting pictures and videos is drag and drop (large videos should be added as links).
As described earlier, doing everything via email is a little better in Discourse than in Google. For those who like using email “just the way it is”, it’s worth noting that it could be a little bit better.
The flexibility of creating categories and topics (what Google calls “conversations”), merging, splitting, or relocating discussion threads, getting AI summaries and tagging them to improve searches, etc., all work well and would be useful if we actively manage the forum topics. Even with no active management, just having people who post online choose the correct category (Maintenance, Q&A, Project, etc.) might be of use.
For your review - Of course, the best way to evaluate Discourse is to get an account and try it out. The site currently has a mix of topics demonstrating Discourse’s capabilities, but browsing around you will see that it suffers from too many discussions of the application itself and its implementation, and not enough postings from the Nonsuch user community. With more active participation, the home page that shows topics by latest, hot, unread, etc., would be useful.
The breakdown into categories was kept limited. As such, it may seem flat. This was by choice - keep the home page simple to look more like the Google Group page. The home page is certainly not the prettiest or most functional that you will find. It’s a canned solution with no programming or design investment other than the heading. Use of additional plug-in functions was kept to a minimum. It is basic and functional.
To evaluate using Discourse as the day to day engine to support the forum activities of the INA (without any additional efforts invested) comes down to comparing the Discourse home page display and navigation to the Google Group site. Email use will be basically unchanged. People will still have the choice - do you want to see the landscape and browse, or just look at one email? If we lured people into posting updates during their projects, would people check the site the check and comment on how things were progressing? Having different categories might provide more things of interest (Upgrades like a composting head or electrical propulsion). Any additional benefits will be based on how much we expand into using the capabilities that are not currently in use or available in GDG.
We could change the address of the Discourse site to nonsuch.org/forum to integrate it into what we already have. We could leave some of the categories open to the public much the same way that the web site has public and private spaces.
While this is not actually an evaluation of Discourse, everyone on the team is keenly aware that the success of any migration such as this is dependent on the willingness of our user community to undertake the effort. Finding your way around is not hard, but it is different. Creating a post is not hard at all, but you have to learn where to click (unless you use email). Browsing a page full of topics or postings is going to be welcomed by some, seeing a single email to respond to is going to be comfortable for others, and the idea of changing nothing at all seems to have a following.
An aside:
Twenty four people now have an account in Discourse. They have generated a limited number of discussions of Nonsuch topics, and as such, attracting additional people has been slow, but postings have started to increase and there is a trickle of new users.
There is no way of knowing how engaged the Google community is for comparison. Emails go out to hundreds of people - how many read them? One observation - when there are no new conversations on Google, it seems to be pretty much dead, but even with just two dozen people, there is starting to be a daily hum of traffic on Discourse. We’ll see it that lasts.
Migrations are always a PITA. It will take planning and discussion if we get that far.
Comments from the Initial Team:
Jon Lewit
N26 #115 - Inua - Kingston, NY Implementation Group
The Discourse site would be a place to visit in a way that the Google Group is not. We can set up and populate categories of on-going interest. With some manageable effort, we could move over several hundred past topics, and have them summarized and accessible. We could convert our PDF documents to a searchable document and have content all in the same place. If you’re at the site (not writing an email), previous content is browsable and the search bar is right there. This would be a nice improvement in part because you can look around at what’s going on and see what others have done. Here it would be readily accessible.
Once you login, you have an active session on that browser and won’t need to login again for two months. You can have a shortcut on your browser and get to the site with one click, then check for the new posts, see the most active topics, and browse other things. If you get an email of course you can simply reply, but the site is just a click away.
We would hopefully move there as a group. We will have to find a way to facilitate account setup for people who just want to use email - help get them through the initial steps of creating their accounts and profiles. After that point, they won’t need to visit the site again (although maybe we could entice them to click the button and take a look).
Could Google and Discourse co-exist with an eye towards a slower migration (not that we need a third platform)? I suppose we could try running them side by side for a few months and have the daily digest email from Discourse sent over to Google. If it is the case that many of our members will require individual assistance to transition, then a slow migration may be necessary. We will need to be mindful that we are one community, and not slip into a new vs. old, us vs. them attitude.
And one final note - If we have any thoughts of running Google and a new platform side by side indefinitely, using the new platform to add features while keeping Google to avoid a migration, then we could take a look at other choices besides Discourse. vBulliten is a more customizable forum site (that would create a “better” site, but with more design and maintenance overhead).
Bob Neches
Nonsuch e26U #233 - Me Gusta - Marina del Rey, California
I’m growing increasingly impressed with the usability of Discourse, which offers a friendly set-up for creating and editing posts.
I believe that, if some volunteer effort for initial curation is put in, that it can add a great deal of value over Google Discussion Groups – in particular if we add tags and categories to help people navigate and reduce the clutter. The built-in ability to suggest related topics is a really nice example of how it already surpasses the Google Group.
I also believe that the new capability available in Discourse to create topic wikis could be a major plus for INA members.
However, the concern that remains is the willingness of INA members to participate – both as users and as maintainers. So far, Jon has done a huge amount of heavy lifting virtually solo.
Personally, I’d be happy to make the case that people should come on in, the water’s fine.
I would like to see this service continue, at a minimum as an ongoing experiment. I think the question of operating in parallel with the Google Discussion Group vs. replacing it should be revisited at regular intervals.
Rob Cohen
RobSoave - N33 #009 - Westport, CT Implementation Group
I have actively used INA’s test Discourse site since early January. I’ve also watched others use it. I had hoped the added features would make collaboration easier and more productive. I haven’t experienced the level of improvement that I had expected. Instead, I’ve experienced a sense of “change for the sake of change” while testing and have been distracted solutions to problems we don’t have( wiki anyone?). Secondly, I am concerned that the volunteers that have supported our Google Group for years haven’t enthusiastically embraced the idea of moving to Discourse. INA’s Google group is the most informative and civilized sailing forum I’ve seen, in large part due to the volunteers administering it. We should trust their judgment and stick with Google till something offering more obvious user benefits comes along.
Comments from users
Paul Miller
(taken from his email to GDG)
Pros for Discourse:
I really like being able to edit my typos!
It handles pictures and videos better.
Cons for Discourse:
It’s something new to learn and not bothering is easier.
I’ve been checking in on Discourse for a bit now and I do see advantages but it would take time before I felt as comfortable there as I do here. I would be okay with either changing or not but my inner sloth leans toward the status quo.
As for quality of email as a portal to either, IMHO the app is better in both cases. I check GG almost daily and would do the same with Discourse. If you rely on email, I think you miss part of the show in either.
NS30U Sandpiper
Brian Godfrey - Vela - NS33 #77 - San Diego
Like Paul, I could switch or stay. But I think we need to remember that someone - a volunteer - has to run this thing behind the scenes and that person needs to want to do so. Volunteers are precious. I think the wishes of those who will run it, while not the only word, are important. So I’m more inclined to vote for switching. (If there were to be a vote, in reality I think the board will decide.)
I’ve been using this Discourse list/site/group/app - what the heck is it called? - for a while and I think it should work just fine as a replacement for Google Groups. I think it will be a challenge to get everyone moved over and I fear we will lose some, but I think most will adapt. I do think it will require a lot of individual assistance because the ins and outs of tech stuff does not come naturally and many here have spent their lives learning other things.
–Brian
“I’m with you fellas” - Delmar O’Donnell
Roger Peebles
4 all in! Could even be hate to say it “monetized”! I know how much we all dislike the idea of making a buck to support the site but hey we are in new times! We could also wrap the fb group in!
Nantasket_Mike
I would abstain from any vote as I personally don’t care enough to advocate for a switch from GG, whether to Discourse or any other tool.
To put my comment in context, I’ve been an INA member since 2004. Most of my information needs have been well served by the original Nonsuch owner’s manual and Westerbeke manuals. On rare occasion I have posted a question in GG and sometimes received useful responses. I made such posts after first searching GG to see if my question had already been posed and discussed previously. This part of the GG experience (searching and sifting, or rather trying to find the answer I needed if it already existed) is the main thing I hope a migration would improve.
I also relied on Mike Quill for assistance with rigging questions or replacement of key components.
And lately I find the effort to produce the new owners guide to be laudable. More than anything it suggests to me that an effort by some group of us to mine the existing knowledge base that GG represents and organize it into a wiki would be a great addition to the documents that currently exist. In that light, the wiki feature mentioned in the discourse on Discourse would seem to be a great tool to have going forward. Perhaps it could be leveraged to efficiently mine existing GG discussions that were gradually brought over to Discourse when we identify that a ‘new’ question is an apparent iteration on an old question.