When I ordered a new sail from Mack, in Florida, I sent them my old sail and, sizewise, they copied it. I didn’t want it back.
I know that sending your old sail to Asia (and getting it returned to you) will cost $$$ but, maybe, it’s worth thinking about. Especially if you’ve been “cautioned” by Paul.
It in part depends on what you’re referring to when you talk about the “standard” sail dimensions.
If you’re talking about those posted on the INA web site and in the manuals, those date back to a time when only the hoist (full length from tack to head) of the sail, and the LP (horizontal distance from mast to clew) of the sails were specified. This actually leaves a lot of wiggle room for variation in sails.
It specifies a right triangle. However, actual sails aren’t right triangles (the foot of the sail is not horizontal but extends below the horizontal point where LP is measured). Nor are they actually triangles (the leech of the sails are curved, so what would be the “hypotenuse” is not actually a straight line and adds area outside the triangular shape).
Furthermore, the posted "area’ of the sails is based upon the right triangle assumption, and the actual area of the sails is larger. The current Nonsuch racing rules place only limited restrictions on how much roach (the sail area between the actual leech of the sail and a straight line from tail to a specific point near the head of the sail). How much curvature the actual leech has can add a lot of sail area (and a lot of leech line length over what you’d expect if the sail actually was a right triangle).
Some time ago, I asked for quotes for a new sail based on the numbers on the website and in the manuals. I was surprised at the difference between the sail description in the quotes I got back and what I thought I’d asked for. The above is based on the explanation that came back to me.
If you’re getting your notion of “standard” from somewhere else, this might not apply, but it’s my best guess as to the source of your confusion.
How you want to proceed depends in part on how you use your boat. If you’re a cruiser, liked your sail when new but now see it as too worn, then use your current sail as a template. If you’re a racer, you might want to get in touch with the committee that’s revisiting the INA Class Racing Rules (see RACING under the MEMBERS tab of the INA website) to see if they have any special advice.
I wonder if others know the length of their leech?
Mine is 47’10” measured from the top of the headboard to the bottom of the hoisted sail.
The leech on the proposed sail is a little under 46’.
Mike.
NSC 30 Chancy.
There is a Salish Sea sail maker that can use your existing sail as a template. Ballard Sails in Ballard Wa. near Seattle just made a sail for my 22’ “Cheers” and laid the old one out at their loft and I could not be happier. The old actual measurement was 340 s.f. the new is 370 s.f. The clew,tack and head stayed in the same relative position but we went with full length battens to allow the extra size for our light air area. It looks really good and performs very well. They have made several other Nonsuch sails.
Ballard Sails also has really good customer service. Everytime I called, someone answered. The sail was delivered on time and put on the boat by the owner.
Might be an option and worth a call.
Don McNees NS 22 “CHEERS”
Central Salish Sea
Might be an option for you
Ya know … if it was me, I’d give Ballard a call. There is plenty to be said for an experienced, well-reputed, local sailmaker that actually builds sails in their loft, as opposed to very far away.
My old sail was 46’ 1 1/2” headboard to clew. I can’t find the exact dimensions of the sail they made me but I’m guessing that they used that dimension or close to it.
As for local sailmakers vs offshore, yes they may be closer for assistance but at close to twice the price, one has to make choices. I have bought sails from Hong Kong for years and the quality has always been excellent.
In one case they used the wrong colour on a draft line and (maybe, my judgement) too light a furling luff in a jib for my Friendship sloop.
No questions asked they let me use the sail for the summer and took it back for corrections the following winter. There was no charge and they paid the freight both ways. Other than that I’ve never had a problem.
Local vs off shore.
I know several sailors who have bought “off shore”, Tasker and others. They make lot of sails. And today the business is everything in between. Some design , cut, and assemble in different locations here, some do everything in house.
Half of the folks I know are happy with off shore and in general terms a serviceable sail not the best, not the worst. The other half ranged from poor to disaster. And getting remediation is not straightforward. So it’s in the price.
A locally made sail from someone who has done this for many boats knows the answer. And it will cost you more . The designs are propitiatory based on their skill as sail makers. No two designs are the same and often there are material differences. Like aircraft wings there are many solutions that will create lift and each approach has unique advantages. So simply giving a sail maker a triangle measurement is not going to necessarily yield the desired results.
The other big driver for sail cost and performance is fabric Regardless of how you define performance not all fabric is the same, even from the same manufacturer. End of season deals are often driven by cloth manufacturers off loading “seconds” Cloth with defects where obvious need to be worked out at a loss of fabric ( or not) and where not obvious can shorten the life of a sail or dramatically impact performance.
As Mark alludes to these are not off the shelf items like a head sail for a Catalina 30.
For local sailmakers in Vancouver area there’s North Sails(Richmond), Evolution(Vancouver), and Leitch McBride on the Island(Sydney?). Maybe at least call them for a quote. If you don’t support local businesses, they won’t be there the next time your need them for repairs or other help.
In reviewing my NS30U manual, I don’t actually see a measurement for the leech. Usually what is measured is the luff(P), the foot(E or LP), and the MGU, MGM, and headboard. The later three measurements determine the amount of roach built into the sail’s leech. The attached docs may be of some help.
And as Mark said the sail is not exactly a triangle. The sail area of 540 sq ft as stated in the manual is not really accurate, my sail is actually about 600 sq ft using the PHRF measurement formula.
Another thing to consider are the battens, and their stiffness. I have taken two of mine down some, as they were too stiff.
If you do go with FarEast, why not just ask them to make your sail the same as Paul Miller’s sail? He seems happy with his.
There are local lofts and local lofts. We bought a #2 and asymmetric from North at the Annapolis show (excellent discount). The sails were excellent quality but were made in Sri Lanka. After our circumnavigation we needed a new main and #2 (the Hood main was not new when we started and the Genoa had 36,000 nm on it. We were in Grenada and there was a Doyle loft there where they did repairs and dodgers/biminis (we got those too). The new sails were made in Barbados. I would think that labour in Barbados would be a bit more expensive than Grenada, but the economies of scale matter.
Mike is the leech measurement you are referring to the straight line from the head to the clew (I will call this the straight line leech or SLL for short) or is it measured along the actual leech (AL)? Based on the measurement you are giving I assume it is the SLL. Making SLL longer will lower the height of the clew above the cockpit. Taken to an extreme it could cause a head banging issue. As the clew is lowered it has the effect of pulling the leech closer to the mast thereby reducing roach. Roach can be added back into the sail but is you go too far the reef points can move too far back creating issues with setting the reef. I have a sail where the first reef cringle is behind the first reef turning block mounted on the boom.
Consider getting yourself some large graph paper and make a couple of scale drawing of the tow sails with the different leech length. According to my calculations the clew with the 46’ leech will be about 1’ higher than the 47’ 10" leech sail. Alternatively on a clam day hoist your sail and mark a point on the leech that corresponds to the 46’ leech measurement. See where the clew will sit if you go to the standard measurement. Ask Paul to hoist the sail on Sandpiper during a lull and to measure the height of the clew above the raised portion of the rear deck. You can compare that to the measurement with your sail.
As a point of interest, I have 3 sails for my 26. The rules specify a 20’ 6" at the LP at the clew. All three sails measure 20’ 4" from the tack to the clew. I do not have the lower LP. The luff measurements under the rules call for 41’. The sails measure at 39’ 4", 39’ 10" and 41’. What we can take from that is that every sail maker has his or her own idea of how to cut a sail. Many of them do not worry about the Nonsuch racing rules.
My sail was built in 2018, so battens are fairly modern, but I found the top two too stiff. I plan to put my sail back on the boat in a week or so, and I also plan to measure it before I do. Will let you know.
Do
I believe that the original dimensions proposed by Fareast Sails are the dimensions used to make Mark’s sail. I made the mistake of measuring my sail.
The deeper I got into it the more I realise they actually know what they are doing.
Actually I did lay out the two sails to scale. One of the things I saw was that the old sail reefing points are at about 8% and 16% of the luff. The new sail puts them at 12% and 24% of the luff which I understand is more conventional. That puts the reef points ahead of the current sail reef points. I suspect that the old sail is a well thought out rule breaker.
The old sail fitted and boom height over the cockpit was never an issue.
In the end I decided for a standard luff and foot and a slightly shorter leech. One of the reasons for not going all the way back to what seems like the standard length was that I know the topping lift tackle works with the longer leech. The other is that the old sail worked. Another thing that I did consider was the possibility of dipping the boom.
About the racing rules, I only worry about passing other boats, I know I can’t keep up with a Nonsuch.
Thanks for everyone’s suggestions and information.