The older I get the more I discover things I don’t know but thought I did. My recent discoveries concern Nonsuch reefing block placement and sail size. I hope you can help me out by filling in the blanks.
Reefing block placement on the wishbone boom. I have gone through the last 10 years of my Nonsuch ownership blithely assuming that the position of the reefing blocks on the boom was more or less standard. Not sure why I assumed that but I did. Duh.
In anticipation of getting a new sail, I took some measurements of my current sail and noticed that the location of reef points on the sail varied a lot from what was listed in the Nonsuch manual for my 30 Ultra. Now, the reef blocks on my boom work well with the sail reef points so I thought that must mean the reefing block locations must be consistent with the sail and perhaps vary from boat to boat.
I had a chance to compare the reefing block locations on my boat, FATE, with another Nonsuch 30 in my marina, COMPANIONSHIP, and found big differences. I measured from each reef block on the wishbone back to the end of the wishbone where the tubes meet the casting.
First Reef:
FATE = 24"
COMPANIONSHIP = 13"
Second Reef:
FATE = 67"
COMPANIONSHIP = 45-1/2"
I’ve asked another friend to measure his boat to obtain more data.
So, my questions are…were the reefing block locations a buyer’s option that was potentially customized for each boat when she was new? Or were blocks moved later? Is it true that my sail’s reef point locations are essentially now dictated by the existing hardware?
Sail size. I always thought my 30U had a sail that was 540 square feet. That’s what the manual says. Imagine my surprise when Precision Sail Loft offered to make me a sail that was 682 square feet. (I had asked to improve light air performance. Below is the abbreviated email exchange with Precision.
I just checked the area on the invoice for the new sail I bought two years ago. It was 56.8 sq M (612 sq’).
As for the topping lift, my leach overlaps it but it isn’t a problem because when close hauled the topping lift is always slack.
Hi Jim, I haven’t measured the boom but will now that you mention it. I am currently going through the process of buying a sail from Precision. I got quotes from several lofts as follows:
Doyle: 594 sq ft and said moderate roach in the description. over $1k more than Precision
North: 633.24 sq ft great sail loft and super support but very expensive over 3k more than Precision
Quatum: 647.98 sq ft very expensive but only because of with exchange, duty
Far East:610.86 Least expensive by only a couple hundred dollars CDN when exchange and duty factored in
I decided to go with Precision because:
Canadian loft although sails made in orient
Great interface online and with their team and support
Purchased sails from them for my C&C 25 the year before last and very happy with sail
Added the Navigator package that adds offshore upgrades which is required here on Atlantic coast and sail number etc and still very close to $5k CDN. (didn’t go with any full battens)
I have a complete sail measurement diagram of my old sail if you want a copy as reference.
David Godfrey
NS 30C #145
RNSYS Halifax Nova Scotia
Jim - Based on the math, at 45’ tall and 24’ at the foot, a right triangle area = 24’x45’/2 = 540 sf. With the extra at the bottom and the roach, you’d be hard pressed to get to 682 sf unless you’re in the Matrix.
Bob Gehrman
NS30U # 396, “Quickbeam”
Baltimore, Maryland
Thanks, this very helpful. Yes, I’d very much like to see a measured drawing of your current sail. How large will your new Precision sail be? Also, what measurements did you need to take from the boat? Unfortunately I lose access to the boat in a few days when the yard pulls her.
Maybe this is all easier in a phone call. Let me know if you’re up for a chat.
I don’t know the answer, but it might explain why sailmakers I’ve talked to who’ve made Nonsuch sails for others (e.g., Precision) always have seemed to quote larger sail areas than I expected. When I asked about them about it, their response was they didn’t know the history but just thought people were ordering bigger sails.
For the 35 year old sail being retired that I measured there was a fair bit of roach outside of the triangle and probably some depth in the sail that doesn’t show in the triangulation formulae. Only guessing, I failed grade 3 math and didn’t get much further. I’ve added the measurements sheet and a couple pictures of the roach measurements.
Hi Jim,
I bought a Quantum Cross-Cut cw 2000 Main and the invoice says that it is 62.2m2. I have two full battens and I notice in light wind the sale does get held up a bit by the topping lift. I’m not sure if it is because of the sail size or the battens. I will admit I am new to NonSuch sailing, and that my last sail was so blown out that I had to reef her in 13 mph wind or she would just sit on her ear, but I am happy with this sail, didnt have to reef her at all last year and the boat performed beautifully. Bought from Quantum, Rochester NY loft, because they offered a discount for NonSuch boats. (Will admit that I used that discount to buy the higher priced performance sail )
The INA racing rules specify a hoist of 45’ and a lower LP of 24’ for the 30. The lower LP appears to be a perpendicular line running from the clew to the mast. Since the clew is higher than the tack this creates a triangle of sail below the lower LP. Theoretically the measurement from the tack to the clew would be slightly longer than the lower LP, however the difference is so small it is irrelevant for this discussion. The sail area for the 30 is listed at 540 square feet in the brochures, which is one half of the luff multiplied by the foot of the sail. The tack on the 26 is about 2’ lower than the LP ( I refer to the 26 because I have down a scale drawing for it, I have not done a scale drawing of the 30). I do not know what it is on the 30 but if the tack is 2.5’ below the lower LP the resulting extra sail area would be about 30 sq. feet. If the tack is 3 feet lower it adds about 36 sq. feet to the total sail area.
The measurements for the 324 are a hoist of 48’ and 24’ for the lower LP. Sail area would work out to 576 sq ft if the formula of hoist x LP /2 is used. This is where things getting interesting. The brochure prepared by the factory for the 324 gives a sail area of 576 (hoist x LP/2) however a brochure prepared by Harris and Ellis Yachts ( 324 sailplan, profile, layout, & specs photo - Nonsuch Photo Galleries photos at pbase.com ) gives the sail area as 684 sq ft. On the INA there appears to be two brochures shown as one document for the 354. On page one the sail is listed as 783 sq ft and on page 3 as 669. 669 is the sq. footage when the hoist x the LP/2 is used. I have asked around but have never found a definitive explanation for the differences, but I assume the larger sizes take into account the extra sail area below the LP and the area of the roach. If we assume the area below the LP is 30 sq ft we get 570 sq ft which means we would need about 110 sq ft in the roach to get to 680 sq ft. This is where my math skills start to break down but I think it would require a maximum roach of 2.15’ to give the necessary extra square footage on the 30 and about 2’ on the 324.
Based on a scale drawing of the 26 sail the maximum roach is about 1.6’ so an extra 2’ on a 324 or 30 may not be unreasonable.
Something to watch out for is that as the roach extends back it moves the reef cringles back as well. I have a second hand UK sail that has an extra large reef. The cringles have moved back so far that the second reef cringle sits behind the 2nd reef turning cheek block mounted on the boom. Due to the topping lift and topping lift safety pig tail lengths, I could not move the boom back far enough to make the 2nd reef work unless I ran the 2nd reef lines through the first reef turning cheek block. I will try to attach a photo showing the problem. I tied a line to the cringle and pulled the cringle back until the sail was flat. You can see the ring is further back than the turning block. I could just make the first reef work if I made sure the knots for the reef tack were small enough that the reef tack was right against the mast. The reefs on the sail are not very big so I have rig the second reef to the first reef turning blocks and don’t use the first reef. The second reef on the UK sail was about 1/2 in size between the first and 2nd reefs on the my Botts sail so I felt using the 2nd reef the UK was a good compromise. I have 3 different sails. The feet are all the same but the hoist vary. The location of the reef cringles vary significantly. For example from the tack to the first reef cringle the 3 sails measure 4’10", 5’6" and 6’10".
So in summary past practice was to list the sail area by using the formula hoist x foot/2. Extra sail area created by the roach was ignored. More recently sail boat manufactures have given the total sail area because it results is a better sail area displacement number (makes the boat look faster). Sail makers are going to charge for the total sail area sewn into the sail. You will want to know the distance from the tack to the clew point on the boom and from the tack to each of the reef turning blocks on the boom and make sure the sail maker does not make the distance from the reef tack point the reef clew point longer than the those distances.
You describe the variation in cringle locations on sails. Do you think there is similar variation in the reef turning block locations on our boats? Presumably your UK sail’s cringle locations fit some UK boat. If so, did our boats’ variations start at the factory or were they the result of later owner modifications? I do not have extra holes in my boom. Any guesses?
This is a very interesting discussion and has left me wondering, maybe because of my general ignorance with regards to Nonsuch racing. I have always thought of our boats as a class that can be raced straight up - no rating necessary as the sails were all the same size. But, reading this all, it appears our sails vary greatly in size - by 20% or more. How does that impact racing - are accommodations made for varying sail sizes? (And now that I have started - what about varying props?)
lloyd herman Rendezvous, 30U w/ a Botts sail of whatever size
Port Washington, NY
Jim,
From what I recall, the difference has to do with the strength of the fiber and how tightly the fibers are woven.The stronger the sail cloth the better it holds its shape in heavy wind and over time. I worked with Doug Burtner in Quantum’s Rochester loft, he was very helpful and responsive. BTW - I checked my quote from Doyle and the size was 55.28 m2 - go figure, right?
Lloyd: You’d have to check with your local P.H.R.F. people. Here in NC, I’m penalized 3 sec a mile because of my folding prop as opposed to a fixed prop.
Joe Valinoti
S/V iL Gatto NS30U #221
Sea Harbour YC
Oriental, NC USA
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