New Sail Advice Needed!

Newsgroups Archive Prior to 2025
1

Hello All,
After my first summer on the water with a Nonsuch 30 C sporting a 30 plus year old sail, I have patched it enough times to know it is time for a new sail. So I have a few questions which I hope Nonsuch members can help me with. (OK, there’s more than a few questions)

General question:
If you were to replace your current new or old sail sail with a new one - what have you learnt over the years that you’d put on the wish list for a new sail?

Battens:

  1. I see many Nonsuch’s have top 2 full battens with lower 2 loose battens. Is this the best set up?
  2. My current sail doesn’t have any full battens. Is it just because old way (sail is 30-+ years old) of doing it or is there something to say for no full battens.
  3. I’ve read in the posts that 4 full battens aren’t ideal and create issues with sail shape and raising and lowering. Thoughts?

Reefing:

  1. 2 reefs vs 3 reefs?
    a) Would a 3rd reef be prudent to have or is it something that if you need a 3rd reef you should have stayed home?
    b) If you have 3 reef points have you used the 3rd and in what conditions. Are you really glad you added the 3rd?
  2. My current sail has blocks on the leech reef points.
    a) Is this necessary?
    b) Will the crinkle alone do the job if the reef line is run through it instead of a block or ferrel?
    c) Or are the new slippery ferrels which are lighter than blocks the way to go?
  3. Are the 2 reef points standard in their location or has anyone put them in a different placement and if so why?

Cunningham:

  1. Worth putting in or not? I would think it can be helpful.

Sail:

  1. What sail material are people using for their sails?
  2. What cloth weight is best?
  3. Is a tri radial sail worth the added expense? I know our sail is a bit of a mix of genoa and mainsail so not sure how tri radial figures into the mix.
  4. Windows for the telltales?
  5. Any other comments on the sail itself?
    a) Cut of the sail
    b) Added roach?
    c) How many draft lines?
    d) anything else?

Sail Makers: I am in Canada and with the exchange rate the US$ isn’t very attractive.

  1. Who are you buying your sails from in Canada?
  2. Has anyone ordered from Precision Sails out of Vancouver? I bought some sails for my C&C 25 and they were pretty good sails however I worry about the no service loft here in Nova Scotia.
  3. Other local options are Doyle, North, Quantum, Michelle Stevens, Scotian Sails (Rolly Tasker). Thoughts on those you’ve used?

Any other advice would be most welcome. Know there is a lot here. This sail I’ll be buying will be the last one I’ll buy for the boat so would like to do it right. Thank you in advance for your input and time.

David Godfrey
NS30C #145 Thursday’s Child
RNSYS, Halifax, NS Canada

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Dear David,

On the run, but wanted to steer you to Martin Padilla at Somerset Sails in Barker, NY right on Lake Ontario (www.somersetsails.com). Highly recommended and VERY inexpensive compared to the major sailmakers.

I chose a heavy Challenge Marblehead 10 oz Dacron sail material b c of the high consistent winds in the Bay Area, extra roach (caution: might be a disqualifier if racing in one-design NS classes) and two reefs even though the running rigging on my vessel is only set up for one.

His recommended tri radial cut worked out fantastic.

One thing I did have to have done after they broke that Martin didn’t do without coaching: extra webbing at the head, foot and clew and a solid “O” ring instead of a grommet inside the sail. Also, heavy duty webbing for the Harken sliders that I have on the boat instead of narrow ones he provided.

Otherwise, I’m very happy with the sail shape, draw and cost!

Michael Jabara
Hobbes II - 1995 NS 354
San Rafael, California

3

I am a devotee to this thread as of now!
How is Lake Ontario connected to

Halifax, NS Canada

BrianBoat-less in New England

4

Probably best by the USPS and Canada Post, but an intrepid fellow like you could always use the St. Lawrence Seaway…

Happy to answer any other questions, boatless…

5

Hobbes II - 1995 NS 354

Well then how about the Erie Canal ,
For what I have read it is the big NE loop from Lake Ontario to the coast of New England and back again or the reverse,You have to drop the mast thru the canal to do it.
That’s the only way around.
Brian
Boat-less in New England

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Well this is going to be confusing: David Godfrey, Brian Cayer and now Brian Godfrey…

Do you have a stack pack or plan to use one with the new sail? The NS-33 that I almost bought had a brand new sail in a brand new stack pack. We put it up for the very first time when we did the sea trial and discovered something interesting that I’ve never seen before.
Because of the wishbone boom, the stack pack forms a very wide valley of canvas and the foot of the sail goes down into this valley quite a ways. It seems like that would cause a lot of turbulence and so it appears that the sailmaker had a solution (or at least an idea) for reducing it. On each side of the sail there is an additional piece of sailcloth that angles up from the upper edge of the stack pack to a line on the sail a couple of feet higher. It is attached to the sail by a row of Velcro patches. The rigging surveyor was not aboard, but none of the rest of us (two surveyors, captain, broker, me) could see any other use for this canvas other than to fill in the gap between the stack pack and the sail. I honestly have no idea if, or how well, it worked. But it makes sense and might be something to think about and research if you are going to use a stack pack.

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Brian M Godrery,
The stack pack works fine. I speak the truth, I know from experience .
Let me tell you about the time….
Brian
Boat-less in New England

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Yes, it is very nice not to have to flake the sail. It wasn’t the stack pack that was novel, it was that filler piece.

9

Have you considered an offshore loft?
I’m not a racer, I don’t need the sailmaker local to tweak it for maximum performance, and I’ve bought several sails from Hong Kong in the past. My current sail is from fareastsails.com and I’m very happy with it. The workmanship is excellent and I’m pleased with the performance. The price was something over half what local lofts were asking.
That is a good mix for me but may not be for everyone.
Paul M
NS30U #211, Sandpiper
Cowichan Bay, B.C.

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Hi David out in lovely Halifax -

I sail an NS22 “Moustaches”. I don’t race. After reading your lengthy (and excellent) list of questions, here’s what comes to mind quickly -

Will a Cruising sail suit you or do you race ? My new (6 years ago) sail came from Travis Blaine at Mack Sails in Florida, built right in their loft. I love it. It has one full batten at the top and three other short battens. It has TWO reef points. Personally, I feel that 2 are sufficient and a third requires more line, more hardware, etc. Then again, one can never have enough fenders, right ?? But, hey, 3 reefs is … well… My sail is VERY well built and reinforced. On the TACK reef points, Travis has a 6 " strap running through each cringle with a big O-ring on each end, permitting me to run the line through the O-ring on the side of my choice. Personally, I don’t like the idea of blocks attached to the sail, riding up and down and being flaked, etc. I truly believe that with decent line and smooth cringles (or O-rings), one can reef smoothly.

I replaced a good (and very costly) old North tri-radial sail made of a laminated cloth that was mildewed inside the laminations (the glue rotted). Uncleanable and looked disgusting. I wouldn’t advise a laminated sail. My sailcloth is Challenge Marblehead 6.7 weight dacron and is still nice and stiff as a board. I sent Travis my old sail “to copy”. This was helpful to him. He sent me back the new sail six weeks later.

I have never seen a Nonsuch with windows cut into the sail to see, in general, or to see tell-tales. Also, my sail has an excellent leech line adjustment for “luffing” chatter. I can certainly see the need for real heavy dacron in SF Bay, on a big Nonsuch. 10 oz. Marblehead would be bulletproof. I have plenty of confidence in my somewhat lighter sailcloth (though it’s a popular weight) here on Lake Ontario. I’ve sailed (reefed down) in 25 - 30 knot winds and gusts with no worries.

All of that said, while I’ve never met Paul Miller, out on the west coast, I know that this guy knows his onions and if he recommends an offshore loft, I’d think very seriously about it. BUT, if you do this, for a few bucks, send them your old sail “as a reference”, provided that you know it to be the right size, etc. In principle, I would love to recommend a Canadian (or even more local) loft but the financial implications seem to rule that out. At the time, my sail from Mack cost me a little over 3 K CAD. No loft in Canada could touch that (and that’s not counting the DAMN HST). It’s not their fault - all of the supplies are imported, etc.

Oh … I would never go with more than 2 full battens as more can cause sail drop issues, etc. and require more ($$$$) hardware, etc.

Good luck.

Ernie A. in Toronto

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Hi David

you didn’t mention whether or not you have a track or bolt rope. If you are thinking of installing a track (like Tides marine) in future then now is the time to order the installation of 'Batt" cars onto the sail, with suitable reinforcement.
Given that you sail (and probably live) out of Halifax, I would go with a local loft like Scotiasails just to save on shipping charges.
My $0.02

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FWIW shipping is free from fareastsails.

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Hi David,

The first question is what do you want to do race or cruise? If cruising is your aim, you won’t go wrong with soft full battens for the top two battens.

To answer yours, the two full batten fashion was at its peak in the 1980’s. The idea was that it would make the sail more durable. On Botts advice I opted for longer partial battens with a Botts big leech. Even though I had never sailed a Nonsuch prior to 2006. The sail propelled Mascouche to victory in the RCYC Rendezvous of 2006 and 2014 where I handicapped myself with a Dodger and bimini.. The drawback of the big leech is that it accentuates the weather helm so one has to reef early which is a pain in the neck if you are cruising.

A Cunningham is a good idea especially if you wish to race.

On my 26 I chose two sets of reefing points 10’ apart. This served me well on Lake Ontario. I only used the double reef once when the breeze was registering 30 to 40 knots. It was the day of the RCYC’s Commodore’s cruise at the end of the season. The sailing office prudently cancelled the cruise as there were many new members with large boats and little experience who might have attempted to go out. Several J105s ventured out along with Pondus a 26 and myself. We both took in a second reef prior to venturing out. In those conditions, the boats were perfectly balanced for the first time so we enjoyed light steering. We both had great sails while single handed. One of the J 105’s broke its boom when the boom vang was not released in time. It was the experience of having the boat well balanced for the first time to decide that I needed to change the rig to reduce the foot by 5’ to enjoy sailing in my twilight years. I am convinced that the leaks that appear at the rudder post can be attributed to the pronounce weather helm and the forces it generates at the entry into the hull.

Since the wishbone rig requires an outboard and inboard pennant for each reef, things get cluttered even with two reefs. Three would be too much for me. I get by comfortably with a single pennant for each reef which is simple to set. A photo of Mascouche participating in the 2014 Rendezvous with a Botts sail can be seen on the cover of the Kwasind September/October 2014 issue. I am enclosing a photo of her with a standing gaff in light weather and 30C heat. The sail was made and designed by Durk Steigenga (ex Performance Sails) of Halifax. As he is local, you would do well to approach him even though he is retired. He participated in this year Bermuda Race and is a volunteer for the Chester Schooner races.

Cheers,

John Newell
Mascouche NS c#1
Toronto
image0.jpg

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​

General question:

If you were to replace your current new or old sail sail with a new one - what have you learnt over the years that you’d put on the wish list for a new sail?

Battens:

  1. I see many Nonsuch have top 2 full battens with lower 2 loose battens. Is this the best set up?

I have raced my 26 with 2 full 2 partials against a 4 partial sail, there is no material difference in performance. The only advantage in three full battens is less flogging of the sail when raising it.

  1. My current sail doesn’t have any full battens. Is it just because of the old way (sail is 30-+ years old) of doing it or is there something to say for no full battens.

  2. I’ve read in the posts that 4 full battens aren’t ideal and create issues with sail shape and raising and lowering. Thoughts?

4 full is a bad idea, the huge lower ones twist when you drop the sail and cause it to jam.

Reefing:

  1. 2 reefs vs 3 reefs?

a) Would a 3rd reef be prudent to have or is it something that if you need a 3rd reef you should have stayed home?

b) If you have 3 reef points have you used the 3rd and in what conditions? Are you really glad you added the 3rd?

3 reefs is more or less the same as bare poles and what the heck are you doing out there?? I have used the second reef 3 times in 22 years…

  1. My current sail has blocks on the leech reef points.

a) Is this necessary?

b) Will the crinkle alone do the job if the reef line is run through it instead of a block or ferrel?

c) Or are the new slippery ferrules which are lighter than blocks the way to go?

I have blocks at the tack end. Maybe the new slippery ferrules are a good idea. I can say I have ever seen a nonsuch with leach blocks .

  1. Are the 2 reef points standard in their location or has anyone put them in a different placement and if so why?

Don’t mess with this, get it wrong and the reefs will not work. An experienced nonsuch sail maker knows what is needed. Have a friend with leach points that are incorrect and they can’t be changed and the reefs don’t work…

Cunningham:

  1. Worth putting in or not? I would think it can be helpful.

You need one, adjustable from the mast.

Sail:

  1. What sail material are people using for their sails?

Dacron , I use a German sailcloth from Dimension Polyant.

  1. What cloth weight is best?

Sailmaker decision.

  1. Is a tri radial sail worth the added expense? I know our sail is a bit of a mix of genoa and mainsail so not sure how tri radial figures into the mix.

There are a few around, very very expensive.

  1. Windows for the telltales?

No, but put them on the leach , split them and sew a bit on each side or they don’t work.

  1. Any other comments on the sail itself?

a) Cut of the sail

b) Added roach?

Yes but don’t go crazy

c) How many draft lines?

2

d) anything else?

Sail Makers: I am in Canada and with the exchange rate the US$ isn’t very attractive.

  1. Who are you buying your sails from in Canada?

  2. Has anyone ordered from Precision Sails out of Vancouver? I bought some sails for my C&C 25 and they were pretty good sails, however I worry about the no service loft here in Nova Scotia.

  3. Other local options are Doyle, North, Quantum, Michelle Stevens, Scotian Sails (Rolly Tasker). Thoughts on those you’ve used?

I have bought 2 sails from Quantum in Rochester , it used to be Harrstick Sails He has made 100’s of Nonsuch sails. I lived in Michigan and I now live in Victoria and he delivered my new sail last May here.

So why buy a sail in Rochester, New York when I live in Victoria BC? Because IMHO he make an excellent Nonsuch sail. I loved my first one, had it for 18 years and it is now sailing on a Nonsuch in RI for a 92 year old gentleman. And the new one is one is better. Lighter cloth due to manufacturing advances in the past 20 years..

There is a Quantum loft in Mahone Bay. But If you go the Quantum route get the sail from Quantum Rochester as they have all the experience. Mahone can do the period inspections. The contact is Doug Burtner. dburtner@quantumsails.com 800.342.5033 If you go this route tell him I sent you and there is an INA discount …

All this to say there are other sailmakers out there it all boils down to what meets your needs.

Hope this helps…

Thor

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This thread is so informative. Quick question regarding the cunningham, how do folks have it rigged? Can you share a pic or sketch?

Robin B
ZOE, 30U #307
SF Bay, CA

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Robin,
I highly recommend putting in the Cunningham cringle. I use it not only as a flattener, but a mini-reef. Very effective. My only modification was that instead of running the line through it and leaving it fixed. I attached one of those stainless steel hooks to the block so I can remove it from the foredeck mess when it is not necessary. Also, my sailmaker put Rocket battens, of the usual partial length, on my new sail in 1018. Rocket battens engage the leech line and their tension is adjustable with a standard screw at the end. I do not know if these things are worth it as I am not happy with the shape of my sail in either first or second reef, in spite of my many tweaks.

Does anybody else have experience with Rocket battens?

I will try to get a pic of my Cunningham rig today. I’m going up to check on “Suey” after yesterday”s rain event.
Yay Rain!

Dave King
N22 Suey
Alameda

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Day sailing and racing on the Hudson River, I rarely (never) use the 2nd reef. So I used the 2nd reef line at the tack for my cunningham. My clew and tack 2nd reef lines are both run back through rope clutches to the winch I also use for choker. Used frequently, at least when racing.

Tony Martin
Sheba, Nonsuch 30C #212
Nyack Boat Club
Nyack, NY

18

Runs from about 3 feet up near the tack up the head of the sail to a block at the head then down the leech and terminates at the clew. There are 2 jam cleats the adjust the tension , no reef, 1 st / 2 rd reef. Make sure the Cunningham line does not get crossed in the sail track slugs as that will not be good, don’t ask me how I know this.

I have seen the adjustment end at the clew but have no idea how that would ever work on a Nonsuch.

19

Thank you Thor for adding insight to each of the questions. To bring my list up to date I have decided the following so far:

  • cunningham, - yes

  • Reef points - 2

  • Reef clew points - no blocks will use just the rings and will ask for extra reinforcement

  • Reef luff points - dog ears so that the sail between the slides can be lower to the mainsail tack. Will ask for reinforcement

  • Battens - going with none or 1 or 2… still deciding

  • Sail design - normal cross panel, tri radial adds too much cost and not sure benefit is there.

  • Draft lines- 3

  • Other - double tape on the leech, luff and foot; UV protection around the clew because I find it usually sticks out from the cover;
    To Do:

  • Sail cloth weight - I have a sample of 10oz and it seems pretty stiff so not sure yet of weight

  • Battens - still deciding on no full or 1 or 2 full

  • Sail maker - Doyle quoted $5960CDN but I can get a discount although not sure what the discount is. I have a quote from Far East but in USD vs CDN exchange rate and duty and having to buy battens and logo and sail number it is same as local. Precision is around $500 less than Doyle. Awaiting further quotes.

20

I cruise Lake Ontario, often singlehanded. When I ordered a new sail from North Sail a few years ago I specified two reef points to match the second and third reef points in my old sail. ( I had to send it back to have the deep reef installed as requested.) I had previously had a third reef point installed on my old sail. The original first reef was not deep enough to do much and was not used. I believe Mike Quill has suggested skipping the first reef point.

Last summer I motor sailed upwind effectively in 38 kt with the second (very deep) reef. On Labour Day I had a similar experience off the Toronto Islands. Many sailboats were motoring downwind. It was a boisterous wind weekend.

Sailing in tandem with a N30 I find I reef earlier, sometimes at 14 kt. The N30 seems able to manage without reefing until the wind increases to about 20 kt so my observations may not apply. However I believe having a deep reef available is an excellent safety feature.

Mike Darlington
Tiroc N26
Whitby, Ontario