My mainsail blew out last Sunday and I have decided to get a new sail rather than fix the old.
I am wondering if I can get some feedback: I am considering getting full-battens for the top 2 battens so that I can increase the roach a bit to improve light air performance. The other option might be to just make the battens longer to support more roach. Has anyone had any experience with this? Don’t know if it makes a difference, but I have a Tides Marine Strong Track.
I have appreciated all the feedback and help that I have gotten from INA members. This is a great bunch!
Jerome Bertuglia
Purr Diem
NS30 C 289
Stonington CT
Jerome,
I’m certain a member of the INA Discussion Group will offer some suggestions.
You’ve probably already thought of contacting a sailmaker.
My Nonsuch 30U has a North Sails main, but not fully battened. The previous owner worked with North Sails in Marblehead to purchase and I’ve since worked with North Sails in Freeport, Maine.
We sailed from Shennecossett YC in Groton prior to Maine and I found North Sails in New Haven very knowledgeable. Get input from Nonsuch owners then speak to a sailmaker.
What is the question? What is wrong with the sail you have why can’t you have batten pockets add? North builds a pretty good sail! Maybe ask a different question.
Arawak n33/41
The man wants a new sail. Nothing wrong with that; happens all the time. These sails get used and wear out or get destroyed by wind, weather or sun. My $12k membrane Kevlar-reinforced Doyle shredded two weeks ago in a 40+ kt blow and 10 years of hard use on SF Bay.
Now I’m back to simple, but sturdy Dacron and an interested also in the “all full”,”two full/three partial“ or “all partial” batten question. So I too am interested in the answer.
The cloth I picked btw is 10 oz Marblehead from Challenge Sailcloths...
Michael Jabara
Hobbes II - NS 354 #72
San Rafael, CA
I have a Nonsuch 26 so my comments refer to what I have found since buying her in 2006 when I bought a new Botts sail with big roach and large battens (Not full battens). Botts felt full battens did not improve windward performance. I agree, since one is trying to achieve a genoa shape. Mascouche did well in the 2006 and 2014 Rendezvous when we competed using 3/4 battens. Also, you get a better PHRF rating without full battens. If you want to use full battens for ease of sail handling and reduced wear and tear, consider using soft battens. I am experimenting with them on my new gaff rig this year. Last year I started shaving down the forade 3’ of my full length stiff battens to improve windward performance.
If you wish to race in the Nonsuch classes you are only permitted two full top battens. Mascouche had a marked weather helm sailing with the large roach which magnified it. When sailing to windward to get the best performance, I found that I needed to reef early when the breeze was in the teens to reduce the drag of the rudder and the load on the wheel. In contrast, my gaff rig with the sail near the centre of effort is under full control with light helm in 30+ knots. It has 5 to 10% less area than a standard 26 sail. The foot is 15.5’ compared to 20’ on a regular sail and the gaff rig has fashionable 7’ “fat head”. This arrangement keeps the boom and main sheet out of the cockpit away from crew and the taffrail where it tends to foul anything in that area and not fun when gybing.
You will need to decide what your goals are when deciding on the right sail for you. For racing I would choose 3/4 length battens with a moderate roach. For cruising, full length battens might be right for your 30.
North has produced well cut radial sails for Nonsuches recently. It would be worth getting a quote from them.
I would second any sail advice by John Newell (not because he is, like many of us, over 50) but because he has TONS of Nonsuch experience and owns the first N26 built and because he has dealt a lot with the man who designed the original Nonsuch sail, Ed Botterell. Mr. Newell knows his onions.
Many of us have a full batten only at the top. It’s the shortest and doesn’t cause issues when dropping or flaking the sail, etc. The more long full battens, the harder it is for the sail to sit at 90 degrees (or even further forward) on a downwind run as the batten car won’t “bend” on the track, if you get what I mean.
I had a new sail built by Mack Sails of Stuart, Florida. It was VERY competitively priced and is made from Challenge Marblehead 7 oz. Dacron. It is a cruising sail - I don’t race. I had fabulous service from Travis at Mack, the sail is made right there, promptly and, most important, the sail is wonderful. I highly recommend them.
I think most of us would recommend one or no full battens and that the partial battens should be the length that was originally specified. Have fun with this. Getting a new sail is exciting. Especially NOW.
Thank you for all the feedback. I have spoken with several sailmakers at this point, and they all seem to think that going with 1 or 2 full battens is the way to go. They also seem to push radial cuts as opposed to cross-cut, but the radial is about $1000 more, so may not be worth the performance difference (to me). The biggest question that still remains is whether or not to increase the roach. I am gathering from this discussion that, I will get better performance in light air (which seems to be the most days here on Long Island Sound) but may get some lee helm in stronger conditions and/or will need to reef sooner. It also would disqualify the boat from competing in Nonsuch class racing. I am not sure if the light air performance difference is worth the tradeoffs.
Jerome Bertuglia
Purr Diem
NS30 C #289
Stonington, CT
One problem with increased roach is hanging up on the TL when it is tensioned in light air. I have a 2004 Botts sail that replaced the City Island that came with the boat.
Ed Botts told me that the sail was the max area allowed under Nonsuch 26 racing rules
when I got a chance to beard him on Madison Is on his way to the TBird race in Victoria.
He was quite unrepentant. It is a great sail when conditions don’t need TL support and
I never had it recut, just muttered every time I tacked and the leach hung up.
Dick Lane
NS26c #35
Swoose Port Townsend.
Personally, I would go with the setup that gives the best performance for the area that you are in i.e. light air. Reefing a Nonsuch is a walk in the park and “the avoidance of reefing” should not, in my opinion, be the deciding factor here.
On my little N22, with my nice new sail that performs well, half the time I go out with the 1st reef already in (a breeze to do at the dock, of course) and sail like that for the whole day. It’s easy on the tiller and the boat, etc. and I probably lose 1/4 knot in boat speed … or none at all.
Don’t forget - your new sail will REALLY perform for you.
I ordered a new sail from Quantum sails a couple of months ago. I chose them because they have been making sails for Nonsuch boats for decades. A 10% discount for INA members was a big factor as well. I am going to Annapolis to pick it up soon, but I won’t be putting it on the boat until the Fall.
I could not be more pleased with the customer service. The man to call is Doug Burtner who is just a delight to work with. I had full battens for the top 2, and a 3d reef put it. It comes standard with a Cunningham.
I keep my N33 in Niantic Bay and this is my third season with a dacron tri radial sail with “normal” roach. I believe getting a good triradial cut is difficult as mine does not have a fair curve from luff to leach. That said, the sail seems to be fast and I have no complaints in its ability to move the boat. We won the ECSA Nonsuch division with that sail last year.
All the Nonsuchs on the local race course use sails with standard roach (based on their PHRF Certificates).
When I bought my sail, I had a bigger roach and I’ve not been happy with it due it either fouling on the cradle lines while putting it up or fouling on the topping lift when tacking.
Joe Valinoti
S/V iL Gatto NS30U #221
Sea Harbour YC
Oriental, NC USA
I am posting photos taken this year showing the curvature of soft battens. These were taken on our first sail of the season last Sunday. It is too early to tell how performance compares between the two sets of battens or with other standard rigged Nonsuch 26s in different wind conditions.
It sounds as if Jerome wants to cruise rather than race in light conditions. In that case, a couple of soft full length battens at the top might be the answer to give him the power he wants without resorting to a big roach. I agree with Joe that big roaches are a pain in the neck literally as they tend to foul the T/L if it is not extra long. That creates a problem due to the safety line that is needed to prevent the wishboom crashing down. I reduced the problem by fixing a batten to the top of the mast attached to the T/L by a block. When all is said and done why make life complicated when the original sails were designed by Hans Fough had a small roach and small blue flat battens that work well? A well sailed 26 with one of the original sails by Fough is still highly competitve. An example is Tasman Rose skippered by Derek Fisher (son of the father of the fleet, Gordon Fisher). Mascouche had the first Nonsuch 26 sail from Hans Fough’s loft (Merged with North sails Toronto.) It is a great all round sail that has gone to Anu. It has been lightly used and should serve Anu well with few headaches.
Jerome’s Tides Track is well suited to full length battens. They tend to bind with ordinary slides.
I may have a quick fix for those with a sail roach that gets hung up on the topping lift - provided that the foot of the sail is not to long. In my case, with full choker on, there was still room between the front of the wishbone & the mast. The simple fix was then to move the wishbone back on the sail plan. I removed the shackle on the clew end of the sail and added a good six inches of lashing between the end of the sail and the stern end of the wishbone. Then I “took in” a foot of the choker pennant (remember: 2 to 1 because of the block at the front of the wishbone). For me, that solved my hanging up problem.
Herb G. Huber
MISTOFFELEES 30C#91
Southern Lake Huron Nonsuch Association
Sarnia/Point Edward, Ontario
A few years back I went through this, I raced a thunderbird for 20 or so years and and have the flags And trophies to prove it and my Such has fixed 3 blade prop and shoal draft. I bought it to cruise.
I ended up with one full batten sail and a heavier sail with four short battens for the leach ( although I had them replace the position of the top batten ) so I can discuss the differences. My light full batten sailed well when close reaching but didn’t point well so I had to footy going to windward. I found my other sail much better upwind and also downwind.
By the way Botts is a personal friend of mine as he was a big influence on the Thunderbird Fleet but he is a bit cranky now as he is in a retirement residence enjoying the attentions of all the women!
I would go with a good all round sail with four battens, not full length.
Cheers
Brian McCuaig. NS30u
Whitby, Ontario
“Having a Nonsuch is reason for being more cheerful than most."
What I need to do, is install a “Flicker” on top of the mast to keep the topping lift clear. This was addressed years ago by someone on this list. Also, if there’s a Melges in your marina, they have them.
Joe Valinoti
S/V iL Gatto NS30U #221
Sea Harbour YC
Oriental, NC USA
