Thought you may find it interesting…
Tim @ Lady K Sailing did an episode about a Nonsuch.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5FijGodY8D4
I find his channel quite interesting: sailing from Lake St Clair (via lake Erie) to the Bahamas and back; overview of various sailboat brands, etc. Seems like a great guy!
Cheers!
– Roman Sivers
Alaaf | NS30C (#122)
Oakville, ON, Canada
I applaud Tim @ Lady K’s enthusiasm, and it’s always nice to hear someone saying nice things about our boats.
Unfortunately, he’s got a lot of details wrong, particularly (but not limited to) who he credits for particular ideas that went into it. So I hope people don’t treat it as as a reliable source for telling others about Nonsuches, because that would be unfair to the people involved.
Sorry to be Oscar the Grouch, but there’s about an error per minute in the video.
As a few examples (based on articles by others as well as interviews I did with the designer, Mark Ellis, for a recently published article in Good Old Boat):
He describes Nonsuch as a company. It wasn’t. It was a brand of boat originally built by the Hinterhoeller company, with a few later built by Wiggers and five that I’ve been told were completed by gentleman named Gunter Langdorf
He describes Gordon Fisher as wanting a roomy cruising boat that could be single-handed, “because maybe he was a lonely guy.” Fisher actually commissioned the original Nonsuch 30 because he wanted a single-handed racing boat. He was such a lonely guy that he guaranteed the sale of the first four boats to the builder on the basis that he had friends he planned to race with who would buy them.
Tim attributes the rig inspiration to Fisher convincing Ellis what to do. At least according to Ellis, it was the other way around. Fisher proposed the Ljungstrom rig and Ellis convinced him to accept the wishbone.
Both Fisher and Ellis were interested in catboats by recent innovations of their time, but they were also well aware of a history of them that goes back to the 1800’s. The exterior profile is in fact a homage to those older designs, although this was not in line with boat design fashion trends of 1970s.
Ellis claims to be the one who saw the potential market beyond racing and put thought into the interior.
Tim is correct that Hinterhoeller did not want to build the boats. Not sure his story about the reasons is accurate, however. My impression is that this was a combination of him doubting the commercial potential and considering them butt-ugly (see #3).
Tim implies that Fisher and Ellis were no one in particular, approaching Hinterhoeller as strangers. In fact, Fisher was the scion of a Canadian publishing empire who was well-known in Canadian boat racing circles. Fisher, Ellis, and Hinterhoeller were previously acquainted. Ellis and Hinterhoeller worked together at C&C and Fisher was a big customer there.
Although Nonsuches do benefit from the open interior and having mast in the bow does facilitate that, Tim goes on to imply that having a mast further aft necessitates having a bulkhead where the mast is. As an engineering fact, that’s not quite true. A bulkhead at the mast position is common on conventional sailboats for a couple of other reasons. It’s convenient way to reinforce the cabintop against the stresses of a deck-stepped mast. For boats with a keel-stepped mast, since you’re going to have that intrusion blocking free movement and line of sight at that point anyway, it’s a convenient place to put a bulkhead.
I feel bad saying this, because the guy’s very energetic and enthusiastic, and I hate to rain on anyone’s parade.
– Bob
Solar Wind
Nonsuch 26C #143
Thank you for sharing that video Roman!! Very interesting and should help keep the monetary values of our wonderful boats on the high side!
I worked for the Hudson Bay Co here in New York from 2013 (when they bought Saks Fifth Avenue) to 2019 and when in meetings and the history of the company was discussed I was able to proudly say “I own a Nonsuch!”
Regards,
Peter Grabow
S/V CAKE WALK III
1987 30 Ultra 430
Jersey City, NJ
Bob;
Don’t worry. I had watched some of his early Erie canal to Bahamas ones, and figured out that, while he spoke strongly and firmly, I often didn’t agree with what was actually said.
Each to their own.
John A. Stewart
NS26C 046
Cat’s Whiskers
Ottawa, ON.
Good critique Bob. I agree the fellow in the video was a little flippant and loose with the facts. Glad you straightened that out. It was still a pretty good recommendation for the Nonsuch design as we all know.
Mike
BIANKA
1986 30U
biankablog.blogspot.com
I applaud Tim @ Lady K’s enthusiasm, and it’s always nice to hear someone saying nice things about our boats.
Unfortunately, he’s got a lot of details wrong, particularly (but not limited to) who he credits for particular ideas that went into it. So I hope people don’t treat it as as a reliable source for telling others about Nonsuches, because that would be unfair to the people involved.
Sorry to be Oscar the Grouch, but there’s about an error per minute in the video.
As a few examples (based on articles by others as well as interviews I did with the designer, Mark Ellis, for a recently published article in Good Old Boat):
He describes Nonsuch as a company. It wasn’t. It was a brand of boat originally built by the Hinterhoeller company, with a few later built by Wiggers and five that I’ve been told were completed by gentleman named Gunter Langdorf
He describes Gordon Fisher as wanting a roomy cruising boat that could be single-handed, “because maybe he was a lonely guy.” Fisher actually commissioned the original Nonsuch 30 because he wanted a single-handed racing boat. He was such a lonely guy that he guaranteed the sale of the first four boats to the builder on the basis that he had friends he planned to race with who would buy them.
Tim attributes the rig inspiration to Fisher convincing Ellis what to do. At least according to Ellis, it was the other way around. Fisher proposed the Ljungstrom rig and Ellis convinced him to accept the wishbone.
Both Fisher and Ellis were interested in catboats by recent innovations of their time, but they were also well aware of a history of them that goes back to the 1800’s. The exterior profile is in fact a homage to those older designs, although this was not in line with boat design fashion trends of 1970s.
Ellis claims to be the one who saw the potential market beyond racing and put thought into the interior.
Tim is correct that Hinterhoeller did not want to build the boats. Not sure his story about the reasons is accurate, however. My impression is that this was a combination of him doubting the commercial potential and considering them butt-ugly (see #3).
Tim implies that Fisher and Ellis were no one in particular, approaching Hinterhoeller as strangers. In fact, Fisher was the scion of a Canadian publishing empire who was well-known in Canadian boat racing circles. Fisher, Ellis, and Hinterhoeller were previously acquainted. Ellis and Hinterhoeller worked together at C&C and Fisher was a big customer there.
Although Nonsuches do benefit from the open interior and having mast in the bow does facilitate that, Tim goes on to imply that having a mast further aft necessitates having a bulkhead where the mast is. As an engineering fact, that’s not quite true. A bulkhead at the mast position is common on conventional sailboats for a couple of other reasons. It’s convenient way to reinforce the cabintop against the stresses of a deck-stepped mast. For boats with a keel-stepped mast, since you’re going to have that intrusion blocking free movement and line of sight at that point anyway, it’s a convenient place to put a bulkhead.
I feel bad saying this, because the guy’s very energetic and enthusiastic, and I hate to rain on anyone’s parade.
– Bob
Solar Wind
Nonsuch 26C #143
Bob, I was wondering if someone would comment on the Lady K video on this page and am not surprised to see a response - and glad to see yours which is a thoughtful one. I have enjoyed your voice on this page and (I think?) in Good Old Boat. The fact that anyone can post anything to the internet opens up a whole avenue of opportunities for people to learn about the world, and to advise the world. So there is a lot of information out there, not all of it is accurate, some of it is entertaining…some of it is dangerous… I guess my point is, we have a great channel here on this official INA page for dedicated enthusiasts, owners and potential owners and past owners, to share questions, comments, respond to queries… We have always had high quality here, especially compared to what internet media has become today. We should prize this and try to keep it effective.
We have a history of great information on this page that hopefully can be made more accessible by easy technology. Others have commented recently about how we can better access our gathered information. I have been blown away at the knowledge coming out from members here… over the past ten years or so it seems to have silenced me as I have become redundant (I have sailed the 26 I own now, with my parents and family since 1983, and have had it in my own yard since my dad swallowed the anchor in 2002 - he is still around to enjoy stories and pictures). I also participate in a Niagara 35 page which has the same heart as this one - albeit in a very different format as a FaceBook group - and it is a very good one, and appreciative of many of the same influential people in yacht design and construction as our Nonsuch page. We have a Niagara 35 in our charter fleet, 1980 build, which I refitted over the past 5 years.
I hope a discussion is looming about our overall Nonsuch communications program and how to make that as effective as easily accessible technology allows. I would like to see some linkage between Nonsuch and Niagara 35 to our mutual advantage. Both were designed by Ellis, and built by Hinterhoeller in an overlapping period of time. Many of the challenges of refitting and maintaining these boats are the same for construction and coring methods and materials, OEMs for castings and stainless fittings, deck hardware, etc… aside from the sailing rigs of course. Our respective owners’ groups could benefit from each other in some ways. (Westerbekes backwards with reversing transmissions, for example). Always a puzzle for new owners. Or those trying to maintain or convert a vintage Volvo Saildrive to something sustainable.
And I encourage all Nonsuch enthusiasts on this page to search out other Nonsuch FB and Youtube pages - there are some interesting networks and stories out there.
Thanks Bob Neches for your thoughtful contributions of Nonsuch lore to this page and elsewhere,
Greg Silver
Misty Cat 26C #121
St Catharines DYC (1983-2002) Cape Breton CBSC (2002-hopefully for another while)