As I see it, we are all looking at the 1st reefing line in that photo. Fair enough. The problem is that it is passing through the SECOND reefing cringle, right ? Not right.
The 1st reefing line, coming from the 1st reefing “hardware” on the boom is, indeed, passing through the 1st cringle. And, to my eyes (and, perhaps, the eyes of others), this 1st reefing cringle is in the wrong place onTim’s sail - it is too high up. So… right line … correct cringle … cringle in wrong location. And, it appears that it’s the same story for the 2nd reefing line.
If the line from the reefing block on the port inner side of your wishbone is going to the lowest reefing cringle on your sail (i.e., the first one up the leech from the sail’s clew), then Ernie is right and that cringle’s placed way too high up.
However, as I look at the picture, there appears to be a line dangling down from the forward of the two blocks, the one sitting closer to the mast on the inner starboard side of your wishbone. It looks like it’s going down into the sail that’s collected in the jacklines, which made me think it’s going to a reef point lower on the sail than the one that’s visible. If that’s the case, then I’m right and your lines need to be rearranged.
In case Ernie’s right, let me tell you about my sail since it might cheer you up.
Another owner had a brand new sail made for him, and immediately discovered that both aft reef points were placed too high. He made the loft build a replacement sail for him at no cost, with the reef points in the right place. He sold the original sail with the incorrect reef points to me, for $600 plus about $50 in shipping.
Leaving the old aft reef points alone, I paid a local sailmaker about $200 to put in new reef points below them. (I guesstimated where they should be by reefing to the forward points and marking the sail at a spot about a generous hand’s breadth at a 45 degree angle up from each reefing block while pulling the sail down and back. Purists will be horrified by that unscientific approach, but it worked out pretty well.)
The point is, if Ernie’s right, you can get your sail fixed for not a huge amount of money (by boating standards). If I’m right, the fix is free.
Tim,
I pulled my Botts sail out of the crawl space yesterday and did some measuring. The tack to the clue measures 20’ 4". Length of foot at first reef measuring from cringle to cringle is 17’ 7". Foot at second reef is 15’ 5". Measuring from centre of cringle to centre of cringle the distance from the tack to the first reef is 6’ 10". From the clew to the first reef 10’ 4". From first reef point on luff to second reef point on luff is 12’ 8". First reef point to second reef point on the leech is 8’ 8".
As a matter of interest I weighed the sail. It came in at 50 pounds.
I have a Sobstad sail as well and will measure it on a nice day in the future. It is raining today and part of the sail sticks out of the garage when I lay it out.
Mark, Thanks you SO much for doing that. Now I think the reefing problem might be the fault of the skipper.
Your tack to clew measures 20’4" ours is 20’-5"
Your foot at first reef is 17’-7" ours is 18’-0" +/-
Your distance to first reef tack cringle is 6’-10" ours is 6’-5"
Your distance to first reef clew cringle is 10’-4" ours is 9’-0"
So there is really very little difference between your Botts sail and our UK Halsey sail. The main difference is the first reef clew and that is a difference of only 16". In my mind the first reef foot measurement should determine the location of the first reef cheek block on the boom and ours. at 18’-0" should be am even better lead than your 17’-7". I will have to do a little more reading over the winter and try to figure out what I am doing wrong. I can hardly wait till next season to try this out again.
A couple of items that I found were critical on La Reina. First you have to raise the boom high enough with the topping lift to get the reef cringle to within 1’ to 1 1/2’ of the boom. Once that is done and the leech reef line made fast you must fully release the topping lift and then harden the choker. If there is any tension in the topping lift it will keep you from hardening the choker sufficiently. The topping lift holds the heel of the boom up and the choker is trying to push the heel of the boom down. It becomes a case of an immovable object meeting an irresistible force. You need to make sure the wind is not putting pressure on the sail as you harden the choker or it may prevent you from flattening the sail sufficiently. Sufficiently flat according to Ed Botterall means the sail does not touch the leeward side of the boom. When you do this check to make sure the front of the boom is not pulled back against the mast. It is unlikely but it does not hurt to check.
My reefing sequence:
1 fall off to a comfortable point of sail and ease the sheet to take the power of the wind out of the sail. (If you are not racing consider using your engine to hold the boat steady)
1(a) Ease the choker, a lot.
2 Harden the topping lift as much as possible, (the blocks almost touch)
3 Ease the halyard while pulling in on the forward reef lines until the first reef cringle is right down (I pull in both reef lines so I don’t have spare second reef line flapping about)
4 Tie off the halyard and harden the first reef line, hard
5 Harden the halyard - about as hard as I can get it.
6 Haul in on the leech reef lines until the first reef cringle is about a foot above the boom. (again I pull both lines so that I don’t have spare second reef line flapping about trying to snag on something) If you can’t get the reef cringle to within a foot of the boom the standing part of the topping lift may be too long. If so, it will need to be shortened. I find it very difficult if not impossible to lift the boom with the reef line.
7 Let the topping lift right off
8 Harden the choker, really hard. Check to make sure there is no tension in the topping lift. The sail should flatten right out and not touch the boom.
Sheet in and continue sailing. (shut off the engine if you used it)
Everyone has their own variation of the sequence. I do not suggest this as the only one but just the one I use. I wold be happy to learn of one that works better.
Mark raises some good points about the topping lift. It’s almost impossible to pull the boom up with the reefing lines, so it’s essential to get the topping lift to raise the boom high enough before taking in the reef lines.
We were out today in some very blustery winds. The forecast was 10kts gusting to 16, what we got was 20 plus gusting to 32. We rigged the second reef for the first time and the results were awful. I could not get decent sail shape at all and the third batten was bending around the boom. I think the sail needed a lot more downward pull from the reefing line. Any suggestions? I had raised the boom with the topping lift, but when I released the topping lift the boom came down to head bumping height.
That looks awfully high for a second reef, more like where I’d expect a third reef. Admittedly I don’t know the 26 very well but it looks to me like the points on the boom are second reef but the reef cringle in use is the third. There certainly seems to be a lot of horizontal distance between the boom points and the reef cringle.
You’re right that you need a lot more downward pull.
When everything’s in order, my understanding has always been that the aft reefing lines should be pulling their cringle to a position very near, and almost level with or slightly above, the corresponding cheekblock and attachment points on the wishbone. Just like with the lashing from the full sail clew to the end of the wishbone. On other boats, I was taught that the angle of force on the clew of a loose-footed sail should form a line that (if extended) would bisect the sail. This was so that forces down and back are both applied. I don’t think having a wishbone boom changes that logic, I think it just changes what device serves to apply those forces.
I concur with Paul’s impression that it looks like the aft second reef line might be running through the sail’s third reef cringle. Looking very closely at the picture, it looks like there’s an unused reef cringle visible among the folds of sail directly below the wishbone cheekblock for the second reef line. I wonder it that cringle is the one the line should be running through.
This is all assuming that your sail has three reef points. If not, there’s a more complicated discussion to be had.
It looks like we are right back to that spirited discussion that took place regarding where the reefing cringles are placed on your sail. If I remember correctly, many of us felt that the 1st and 2nd clew cringles were actually located where the 2nd and 3rd reef points should be (finicky measurements and calculations be damned - just look at the photo of that poor sail).
I will bet the entire cost of a full 4 oz. steak dinner at you-know-where (or even a cast-iron frying pan loaded with the world’s best fried chicken from Stroud’s in KC) that your tack reef point is where the second reef SHOULD be and the clew reef point, as shown in that photo, is exactly where a 3rd reef point should be.
If I am mistaken (always possible), then I know, for dead sure, that the clew reef point is NOT where the 2nd reef point should be - it is simply WAY too high. I believe (tho I might be wrong) that one of our stalwart NS26 owners had sent you a list of where THEIR reef points are (correctly) placed. I’d also imagine that your sail is awfully close, if not exactly the same (correct) size as other NS 26 sails.
I even think that I suggested that, over these long (COVID-enhanced) winters, with those correct measurements in hand, that you get your local sailmaker to add the necessary cringles in the right locations.
The only comment that I can conclude with is to, once again, suggest the same solution.
This has to be the fault of the skipper. The sail dimensions come very close to matching Mark’s Bott’s sail. The sail was made in Halifax by UKHalsey, it has two reefs.
This is from a previous post responding to Mark.
Mark, Thanks you SO much for doing that. Now I think the reefing problem might be the fault of the skipper. Your tack to clew measures 20’4" ours is 20’-5" Your foot at first reef is 17’-7" ours is 18’-0" +/- Your distance to first reef tack cringle is 6’-10" ours is 6’-5" Your distance to first reef clew cringle is 10’-4" ours is 9’-0" So there is really very little difference between your Botts sail and our UK Halsey sail. The main difference is the first reef clew and that is a difference of only 16". In my mind the first reef foot measurement should determine the location of the first reef cheek block on the boom and ours. at 18’-0" should be am even better lead than your 17’-7". I will have to do a little more reading over the winter and try to figure out what I am doing wrong. I can hardly wait till next season to try this out again.
I must be doing something wrong, I don’t know what, but at the moment is just a matter of not being able to see the forest for the trees. I am going to raise the sail in the harbor with the second reef set in the harbor and play around with the topping lift and the choker until I can get it to look right.
Tim,
First thing to remember is we are not a fault based group here at the INA. We are problem solvers.
I have been fighting with the reefs on La Reina as well.
I don’t think it is effecting the reefing but I would recommend that you put another wrap around the boom where you tie off the reef line and make the loops tight. Next check the tack reef line. Make sure that is tigh enough that the cringle is kept in line with the mast. It should not pull out from the mast. I now run the reef line around the block up through the U shaped bracket on the mast collar, through the cringle and back to the bracket and tie it off with a very tight knot. I will try to attach a photo.
Next in the photo you sent the topping lift looks tight and I suspect it is preventing you from hardening the choker. I had the same problem and was bending the top of the mast back but still could not flatten the sail. My suggestion is that you need to shorten the standing part of the topping lift and lengthen the safety pigtail so that the boom can come down as far as is safe. If you have someone who can go up the mast rig a temporary standing line about 38’ long. Slacken the choker righ off and Then lift the boom very high. Then try pulling in the clew reef line and see if you can get it to about 1 1/2’ from the second reef turning block. Let the topping lift right off and then harden the corker and see if you can flatten the sail. Try all of this on a calm day.
Oh, yes, also look for a different weather forecaster.
In case no one has seen these photos before, UKHalsey rigged the bottom cringes so that the are fastened to the sail with a continuous line, this method facilitates reefing by allowing the tack cringe to be pulled all the way down to the reefing block. The slides will stack in the slot but the sail can be pulled down much further.
OK my 2 cents worth. The UK arrangement looks to have way more friction than going via the reef points. I would put a ring with webbing loops at each point and then a block to run the line up and down. Doing this will ensure the reef point is at the clew and there is zero friction. Sometimes sail makers think too hard
