Hello,
I have a Nonsuch 36. Ive been told to put in the first reef at 20-25 and the second at 30 and sail down at 40. Someone who also has a 36 told me this and he is very experienced. I read in the INA magazine today however that some dont put in the first reef until 30 or a boat tilt of 12-15 degrees. Since my clinometer is below deck, I usually pay attention to wind speed. I single hand most of the time and have put in the first reef when the wind is starting to be consistently above 20 but now I’m wondering if that is too soon. What are others doing?
John Waldhausen
Nonsuch 36 #57
Bainbridge Island WA
Here’s a great investment. Just put one over the instrument stack on the cockpit wall
Sun Company 201-F Lev-o-gage Inclinometer | USA-Made Level for Off-Road Vehicle, Jeep, Truck, RV, Camper, Trailer, or Boat https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00042K694/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_glt_fabc_8NV4A9W6GDPPXAKNANRB
Michael Jabara
Hobbes II - 1995 NS354
San Rafael, California
John -
I agree completely with Michael - spend the big bucks on this old faithful and well-loved stick-on inclinometer. You should have one of these guys in the cockpit, mounted dead level where you can see it at all times.
I think that you will get an interesting range of responses to your query. On my little N22 with a nice, new sail, I tend to reef early. If it’s blowing somewhat, I lose virtually no speed and gain tremendous control by putting in the first reef. I have heard that an N36 can go and go and go without reefing until it’s really blowing out there. I think that it would also depend upon sea state and what point of sail you are on and how wild and crazy you feel and/or how terrified or seasick your crew or guests are.
But, get that little meter mounted in your cockpit - it’s not doing that much good below unless you’re wondering when it’s safe to open the oven door.
Ernie A. in Toronto
Best and safest time to reef is when you FIRST think about it!!
Forget the instruments and use common sense
Safe Sailing
and Stay Safe
Cedric - Single Malt 26C #207
Chester Nova Scotia
John,
On La Reina, the inclinometer, more commonly referred to as the “SCREAM METER” by the First Sea Lord, is mounted on the back edge of the companionway hatch (photo attached).
I agree with Cedric and Ernie. There are too many factors involved in the decision as to when to reef that simply using a chosen wind speed is not good practice, although it can act as a good starting point. On the 26, it is around the 16-18 knot apparent wind that I start thinking about the first reef. Other factors that I consider include:
How does the crew feel? Reef to make sure they all feel comfortable and safe. Sailing is suppose to be fun not a test of courage.
How much heel is the boat developing? Remember cold air is more dense and therefore packs more power for a given wind speed than warm air (there is a lot of hot air about when I am on board) If I am spending more time above 25 degrees of heel than under, it is time to reef. It would be smarter is I used 20 degrees as the number.
How much weather helm is there and can I correct it by easing the sheet a little? If not it is time to reef. A quarter turn of the wheel is roughly equivalent to 5 degrees of rudder angle on La Reina. Beyond that, the rudder starts to become a brake. If I am having to use more than a quarter turn of rudder more than for an occasional correction it is time to reef.
Am I starting to feel like the boat is getting out of control or my confidence is falling? If so, reef now.
What is the condition of the sail? A good sail will provide more drive and less heel. A sail a badly shaped sail will produce more heel and less drive. A worn out sail will produce all of the negative factors such as crew discomfort, angle of heel and weather helm at a lower wind speed than a nice new crisp sail (so get out that cheque book).
Is the wind speed building? If the wind has gone from 10 to 15 knots in a short time there is a good chance it will build past 18. In that case it is better to reef at 15 and see what develops rather than waiting until it hits 20 knots. If I wait, the First Sea Lord gives me the look that indicates she is no longer happy.
Am I racing? The numbers change if I am trying to keep up with a bigger boat. Since Ernie does not sail out here, most boats are bigger. If I am engaged in a test of speed with another boat the First Sea Lord’s competitive nature kicks in and she will tolerate more heel.
Is the wind gusting? The First Seal Lord is okay with a steady 25 degrees of heel but she does not like it when the boat cycles between heeling and straightening up. I have taken to easing the sheet in the puffs to try to reduce the effect (affect?)
It is important to consider the true wind speed vs apparent wind speed in conjunction with your point of sail. Up wind I consider apparent wind speed. Down wind I have to keep true wind speed in mind. A few times I have been having a romping downwind sail going well above hull speed in 18 knots of apparent wind. The problem is that true wind is then about 24 to 26 knots. If I have to round up or change course and beat, the apparent wind speed will build past 26 knots which is too much the 26 footer to carry full sail.
I am hoping some of the owners of the 36 will leap in here with comments. The one time I have sailed on a 36, the pressing question was do we start the engine or do we try running our laundry up the mast to increase sail area. One of mine friends who is a keen racer owned and sailed a 36 for a few years. When he put the boat up for sale he took the potential buyers and their sailing guru out for a test sail. The winds were in the 22-23 knot range. The Guru asked my friend if he was going to set the first or second reef. My friend said not enough breeze for a reef. Out they went and had a great sail. The Guru then asked “How do you gybe a Nonsuch”? In response my friend executed a perfect Hudson River Gybe. He said the eyes of the buyers and the Guru looked like saucers. He sold the boat that day. My friend started considering reefing at 25 knots. Another couple I know that sailed a 36 were sailing in Trincomali Channel one day. Winds were light, full sail was set and then they noticed a white line on the water ahead of them. Rather than reefing or dropping sail they started a discussion about what was causing the white line. Was it wind or current? The squall hit before they had reached a conclusion. Of course the wind shifted faster than they could turn into it. The boat lay on her side for a while before she came back up and the squall passed. If you see a white line moving across the water toward you drop the sail instantly. You can always put it back up later.
If you are comfortable reefing at anything over 20 knots then that is when you should reef. Don’t worry about what someone else said. If you are beating to windward in more than 20 I suspect the Scream Meter will show your angle of heel to be more then 20 degrees. The Nonsuch fleet has relatively shallow keels. When you go much beyond 15-20 degrees of heel (the exact amount is up for debate) the keel become less effective and the boat will start to make excessive leeway. You can experiment with this by comparing you ship’s compass bearing to the GPS course over ground at different angles of heel. Velocity made good is more important then speed through the water.
We don’t race for money so comfort and confidence level are far more important than a bit more speed. Another thing to keep in mind is the “hairy chest factor”. A fellow on our dock sailed a Person Vanguard 32 and he only sailed when it was blowing 20 knots or more. One day we were out on the water at the same time. When we got back in he asked “What do you estimate the wind at? 20 to 22?” I had to break the news to him that my wind instrument never indicated more than 15 knots apparent. I know in my case the wind always blew harder, the boat went faster and I was much braver when I tell the stories then when the events were actually taking place. A boat that sails better in 30 knots without a reef is likely under canvassed, too stiff to be comfortable or has a captain that is suffering from hairy chest syndrome.
I hope I have not bored or annoyed you with stuff you already know.
Mark Powers
Mark -
As usual … I agree with you (and Cedric).. it’s all about “How does all of this feel ? comfy ?? Scary ?? Dangerous ??”. But, I laughed when I read “Since Ernie does not sail out here, most boats are bigger.”
I have decided to move out to the coast so be prepared for most boats to get smaller.
Ernie A. in Toronto
Thank you all. I’ll just continue to do what I do now and reef when it feels I need to. I guess the basis of my question was what can the boat handle before one risks breaking things like the mast or wishbone or other hardware.
John Waldhausen
John,
If by, “I read in the INA magazine,” you’re referring to the article I wrote on an interview with Mark Ellis, I’d like to expand a bit on what I understood the designer of our boats to be saying.
His comments were largely in synch with the other postings, that any specific target numbers of wind speed or heel angle are at best reminders to evaluate the situation rather than the ideal determinants. For performance, he suggested going by the sense that your rudder is dragging (which as others have pointed out becomes increasingly likely as the rudder exceeds 5 degrees angle, i.e., at approximately a quarter turn of the wheel).
For comfort, I think he’d agree with the advice that you reef whenever anyone on the boat who you care about is likely to stop enjoying the ride. Under most such conditions, the people who still want a fast ride will still get it. too.
– Bob
Solar Wind
Nonsuch 26C #143
Re “the basis of my question was what can the boat handle before one risks breaking things like the mast or wishbone or other hardware”…
I have read one report of mast failure on a Nonsuch that was attributed to fatigue from multiple days continuous sailing offshore in a storm overcanvassed under rough sea conditions.
Ellis did comment that the weight of the wishbone created considerable momentum that “had to be respected.” But that was in the context of heavy air gybes and extreme sea conditions, rather than directly applying to reefing.
I’d suspect that you’d want to reef simply for comfort (if not speed) long before conditions were putting mast and wishbone at severe risk.
– Bob
Solar Wind
Nonsuch 26C #143
Thank you. That answers my question
John Waldhausen
The quarter turn is a good guide in terms of maintaining boat speed. However gusty conditions will require earlier reefing. You should not be burying the rail. I don’t have an inclometer, the admiral looks after that.
I guess I am in the REEF EARLY and REEF often school when sailing my NS26C. I frequently sail alone. When I sail alone I usually put in one reef before leaving the dock. By setting the reef at the dock I know I can safely control the boat in our busy approaches. If I find winds under 15 or so I will shake out the reef.
I also sail frequently with people who have an infirmity of some kind so I sail with their comfort and safety in mind and with the thought of giving them a joyous sailing experience. I frequently put newbies at the helm, and I find they learn the basics much faster if they are not scared or uncomfortable.
As far as when things break is concerned, I try to keep things in good repair and use common sense so I don’t have to worry about breaking things.
Randy Gadikian
Phoenix Rising
NS26C #37
Buffalo, NY
Anyone have a photo or drawing of what a proper first reef looks like?
Thanks
David Ashline
Mayfield / Albany NY
NS 26
I can offer a picture of an almost, but not completely proper first reef:
What’s right is that the reef clew is pulled in between the two parts of the wishbone, neither above nor below. You can see from the lines on the sail that there’s tension shaping the sail both along both the leach and the new foot (as defined by the reef).
What’s wrong with this picture is that the choker and mainsheet should have been loosened more than they were when tightening the aft reefing line. That would have let the boom move further forward and allowed the reefing line to pull much closer to the blocks. Note the line from the block to the reefing clew to the other side of the boom in this picture makes a V-shape. A fully proper first reef would have that shape much flatter. The reason you want that is to maximize the control the boom has on sail shape. The V being longer reduces the downward force transmitted from boom to the sail.
For me to have more pictures of things done right, I’d have to make fewer mistakes – and that’s not gonna happen.
So, here I am reprising what I used to tell my kids – do as I say, not as I do. I hope someone else has better pictures to post.
– Bob
Me Gusta
Nonsuch e26U #233
What you sent and explained is very helpful! I believe I didn’t loosen the Main Sheet enough. I will try again this weekend.
Thank you Bob
David Ashline
NS 26
Mayfield/ Albany, NY
Have fun trying it out, David.
You want both the mainsheet and the choker loose until the clew reef is where you want it.
Full sequence is:
-
Make sure topping lift is tight, while mainsheet and choker are loose
-
Get the forward reef tight, and only then tighten the main halyard
-
Get the aft reef in right
-
Ease the topping lift
-
Tighten the choker
-
Adjust the main sheet
And avoid hitting the inclinometer readings found on some race boats.
– Bob
Me Gusta
Nonsuch e26U #233
Marina del Rey, California
Yes, I agree
Very helpful
Jean
Third Base NS30C 224
Montréal
Envoyé de mon iPhone
One thing that should be done is to mark all lines. A mark on the halyard for each reef. Marks on the tack lines and ckew lines.
These marks should be put on the lines at the dock.
Its relky nice to know where to set the lines when you need to reef
Everyone,
Does anyone have a photo of where they set the 1st reefing point on the tack. How far above the deck should this point on the sail be off the deck when setting the 1st reefing lines.
Thanks,
Mike
As close to the full hoist tack as practical. Some sails have slides in the wrong spot and if that slide hits the track stop above the reef cringle you could be damaging the sail or slide if you pull down to hard.
Take some time at the dock on a calm day and do some raise and reef practice. Clew should be between the tudes of the wishbone and be pulled back. Tacks near the full hoist tack. Everything should get marked . I set the halyard to its mark first the tack to its mark 2nd and the clew to its mark 3rd. I look at the luff and then tension the halyard as needed. You luff a kittke to make doing these things easier.
On my 22 I reef when the boom end hits the water unless I am feeling sporty.
Don salish sea ns #16 CHEERS