I've finally replaced my non self-tailing Barient halyard winch with a brand new Harkin 48 self tailing model (and bought a winch-bit and Milwaulkee V28 RAD to drive it). I also moved the old Barient over to use for the topping lift and choker. Why not.
Now I might as well consider reducing the size of the halyard itself. I understand from reading the list over the years that reducing the diameter of the line reduces the friction and lets the sail go up and down easier.
The question is how far to go. The original line was rated at 7,000 lbs breaking strength. I can purchase New England Endura 5/16 (8 mm) line with a breaking strength - the same. I tested the self tailer today with lengths of 8mm and 10mm line - both work just fine. Smaller line is harder to handle with bare hands, but since I have self tailing, I shouldn't care anymore, should I?
I don't want to go with a line that is significantly stronger than the original because that just increases the chance that I would damage the sail because of the torque in the drill.
1) Is the statement that "the smaller the line, the easier the sail comes down" true?
2) Is there any reason that I shouldn't go to 8 mm (5/16)?
The smaller line does move through everything with less friction. However, I would not use 8mm because it is very hard on the hands. 10mm is about minimum for a line you will be handling, and the halyard is certainly in that category. Even with a powered winch, you will be raising it by hand 2/3 of the way or more.
With a halyard, it is really stretch that you should be concerned with, not strength. A 30 halyard will be loaded to about 1000 lbs when properly tensioned. Dyneema line (Endura has a Dyneema core) should only be loaded at 15-20% of breaking load to minimize creep. So 8mm is plenty from the point of view of strength and probably stretch - but still too small for the hands, in my opinion.
Please explain the recommendation to:" raise the halyard 2/3 of the way, or
more by hand"
I have a N30C...and raise the sail to full tension with my powered winch
[not self-tailing]
Using four wraps on the winch :when the line slips on the .with minimal
[hand] tension. tailing ..thats it!!
Jerry Jodice
I admit I do not have the patience to wait for the electric winch. Even on 'Anomaly', with her 960 sq ft main I pull it up by hand as far as I can (about 1/3 of the hoist) before taking additional wraps on the powered self tailing winch, then push the button. I do watch when it get near full hoist and then crank the last foot or so by hand. Much easier to tell what sort of tension you are putting on things.
To the original question, if you where replacing the halyard on a boat where normal practice is to use the electric winch for the full hoist - and thus the halyard is never handled - then perhaps an 8 mm halyard would work well.
I raise the sail on my 36 all the way with the electric winch. I raise it most of the way in fast speed and about three or four feet from the top, I switch to slow speed so I can watch when it reaches the top. After burning out one electric winch, I don't want to burn out another one.
Phil LeVine, MeSays, Nonsuch 36 #3, San Pedro, CA
I like to hand raise part of the way as a check on whether it’s time to lubricate the slides.
Regardless, it doesn’t seem right that the winch burned up rather than the fuse blowing. Although I do seem to recall you shouldn’t run them too long as even if everything is perfect, extended use can burn them up. But I thought “too long” was much longer than should take to raise sail.
Something else that wouldn’t help: If wiring to the winch isn’t large enough. There may be too large a voltage drop. I think this would cause it to run hotter than normal.
I’m not an expert but I don’t think an experiment with a smaller fuse would hurt anything. Just have a backup fuse. And double checking wiring size.
> From: Philip R. LeVine philiprlevine@VERIZON.NET > Subject: Re: Replacement Halyard for NS 30 > To: NONSUCH-L@LISTSERV.AOL.COM > Date: Monday, April 5, 2010, 2:35 PM > > I raise the sail on my 36 all the way with the electric winch. I raise it most of the way in fast speed and about three or four feet from the top, I switch to slow speed so I can watch when it reaches the top. After burning out one electric winch, I don’t want to burn out another one. > Phil LeVine, MeSays, Nonsuch 36 #3, San Pedro, CA
My E H Winch has BIG wiring directly to the battery, and a 75 Amp fuse. I
have blown the fuse only once, by staying on 'high speed' too long. I get
about three quarters of the way up, when the winch starts to slow, and then
immediately switch to low speed.
To clarify, I crank the last foot of halyard by hand so that I can judge the tension. I am less worried about the winch (which ought to protect itself) and more about the sail, which has no fuse. There is (or should be) a luff tension you are looking for, and the button provides very poor feel for what that is!
To clarify, I crank the last foot of halyard by hand so that I can judge the tension. I am less worried about the winch (which ought to protect itself) and more about the sail, which has no fuse. There is (or should be) a luff tension you are looking for, and the button provides very poor feel for what that is!
Jon Fitch
'Anomaly' ------------------------------------------------------------------------
I find that on my "26" the 19.2v Sears drill on low gear and reverse produces enough luff tension for lighter winds but for "heavy air" I can get another 3"-4" of halyard retrieved by hand after the drill has stalled or use the Cunningham. As I have remarked in earlier discussions the limited torque of this drill ensures that if anything fouls a smooth hoist then I do not tear off the headboard or choke cheek block.
Dick, 26c #35 Swoose
I like to hand raise part of the way as a check on whether it's time to lubricate the slides.
Regardless, it doesn't seem right that the winch burned up rather than the fuse blowing. Although I do seem to recall you shouldn't run them too long as even if everything is perfect, extended use can burn them up. But I thought "too long" was much longer than should take to raise sail.
Something else that wouldn't help: If wiring to the winch isn't large enough. There may be too large a voltage drop. I think this would cause it to run hotter than normal.
I'm not an expert but I don't think an experiment with a smaller fuse would hurt anything. Just have a backup fuse. And double checking wiring size.
Sorry for the delay in responding. I blew the winch myself. No one to blame. From the time I got the boat, the sail slides would bind up and throw the breaker. I dumbly just went below and reset the breaker and hauled away. The slides had worn and would bind up in the track. Coming down was an issue also. Finally after blowing the winch, I got a strong track and new appropriate slides on the sails and now-no issue. You live and learn. $2000 boo boo plus the sail track. I may be a little smarter now.
Best regards
Phil LeVine, MeSays, 36 #3
Jon Ayers came up with an excellant solution for sticking slides.
Get a small spray bottle fill with 50-50 water and detergent and spray the slides and up the track as far as you can reach. Do this every time you
raise the sail and you will have no problems, up or down. The detergent washes away when it rains so there is no build up.
Do not put grease on the slide. It will accumulate dirt and when it touches your sail (at the end of the season), you will have black markings along
the luff of the sail. Believe me, I know, back then on my brand new sail.
Lorie & Angie Simone
REVELATION NS30U #260
Kingston, ON
East - Lake Ontario
613 634 7457: Fax 613 634 2674