Finally done sanding, the Nonsuch is ready for spraypaint!
That means I’m in for the next project; (re)fitting a rub rail! The “original” one was removed before I bought her but I do would like to reinstall one. I know where it was mounted on the hull so that’s not a problem.
I would like to know what the actual shape of the teak profile looked like. I presume that all factory mounted or original mounted rub rails on these boats are the same. If someone could post a detailed picture or a sketch with dimensions, that would help a lot!
What would really help “the rest of us” is if you could be persuaded to leave your boat and your lovely homeland and come over here and fix ALL OF OUR BOATS. You are a true craftsperson (and a few of us are jealous). Your boat is going to look gorgeous.
I cannot wait to see a load of detailed photos. Just make sure that you follow the rules and stay healthy.
@Ernie, thanks for your kind words. I dislike the dutch climate especially in wintertime. That’s the main reason we left for the Caribbean in the first place. And guess what, after being abroad for 4 years, the weather hasn’t changed one bit. So let’s meet up in a year or two! You can start building that to-do list as of now, I am saving up for a second go
@Ko, that must be a beautiful piece of jewelry mounted on your boat. I love the color of mahogony. All woodwork on my Nonsuch is teak so I presumed that teak was the standard by Hinterhoeller
@Fred, thank you very much, looking forward to your reply
Hi Mark,
I just measured my rub rail. The pictures don’t show the dimensions well but they do show where I measured.
Mine is a dark hardwood that could be anything. It was mercilessly baked in Florida for its first 20 years and was almost a write off when I got the boat. After absorbing about a gallon of Cetol Marine it now will pass for wood again but is still very checked.
Anyway, the dimensions are 1 3/4” thick (hull to metal trim strip), 1 3/4” high at the back (against the hull), and 7/8” high in the front (outboard, under the trim strip).
The taper seems to be about evenly divided top and bottom although boatbuilding convention in my experience would be a much greater bevel on the bottom than the top. … (but I’m an old wood boat builder and somewhat fixed in my ways.)
Supposedly, mine is teak, with a stainless rub guard. Since part of mine will be replaced, I’ll see if I can get some good pictures. I’ll warn you that my hull seems to have a bit more… splay? Than most that I have seen. (The sides come up at a slightly smaller angle than it seems the smaller ones do. I don’t know if that is particularly helpful.)
Additionally, the pieces were scarfed together in what I would describe as a traditional locking scarf, similar to ones I’ve seen in Japan. I’ll see if I can get a few pictures of those as well.
b.
Brian
SV Serenity
Nonsuch Nereus 40, #003
Pax River, MD
Mark! Thanks for your reply and suggestions. Unfortunately, boating in my area without a rub rail is not recommended. First, there are lots of locks with concrete and/or brick walls. Second, most old town centers luckely do not have a modern marina but just a brick town wall. Parallel parking is very common and 5+ boats tied up next to each other is not uncommon. It’s also not uncommon to be able cross over -by foot- an oldtown canal using the moored boats that are packed in there. In my area there are hardly any moorings and over night anchoring is generally not done. Too many nice places to dock to spend the evening.
Thanks for the photos. Great to see all of those skûtsjes tied up. Gorgeous boats - we were chased up a canal by a fleet of them as we pounded along in our steel rented houseboat, in Friesland. What a marvy trip THAT was. Takes a lot of skill to sail a BIG flat-bottomed sailboat, in a straight line, in a very busy and breezy canal.
Mark
From the photos it looks like fenders boards are in order not just rub rails.
Out here most of the docks are below rub rail height and walls are few and far between.
The First Sea Lord discourages rafting and prefers anchoring so rub rails are not a priority. Fat fenders/bumpers are the preferred protection.
@ Ernie: Harlingen, salt side of the locks, “Noorderhaven” (harbor north) is one of the places I love to visit. In summertime it’s very crowded. It’s tides harbor, 2 meter (6ft) of tidal difference on a fixed steel profiled wall. Hmmm… gotta know how to tie up a boat there.
@ Mark Powers: Yes! obviously a rub rail doesn’t do any good once you’re tied up in a row of 5 (or more) and it starts to blow. But when you’re squeezing a boat in that position it is kinda handy to have some permanent protection. And, for sure, if someone else tries to get out of the row while you’re in town, it’s good to have some protection. Besides these points, I’ve discussed the no-rail situation with my girl and she has veto’d: a rub rail will be mounted. Personally, I like the looks of my Nonsuch the way it is now (without) but I know she’s going to scratch up a lot quicker without some protection mounted.
If I may say so, you do sound like a technical guy with very good idea’s. Can I ask you for your opinion? I like to glue a fake-teak rub rail, PVC. I have an idea about how to hold the material in place while the glue (or 4200-like stuff) cures. How would you solve this problem?
@ Stephan: Kick @s$! - someone with the same boat who basically went through the same process as I am going through! I will look into the HM stuff and see what you’ve used. Kiwigrip is another NeXt project. I’d love to pick your brain and that makes you my new best friend. Kidding but kinda true. Hope to stay in touch with you.
Mark,
Obviously my prior responses have mislead you. I am not technical nor do I have good ideas. I am however not shy about sharing my thoughts.
Firstly Hamilton Marine has a sale on its rigid 366-R toe rail. It is listed as “PVC toe Rail Mahog Large 20ft or 40 ft multiples”. Regular price $8.39 per foot, on sale for $0.40 per foot. rubrail-|DO|RUB.html
You might want to call them and check that out.
There are no photos. I suspect the “Mahog” means it looks a bit like mahogany.
The rail will be bent in two planes, vertical and horizontal. Not sure how rigid, rigid is so I don’t know how difficult it will be to get the rail to follow the curves. How rigid it is will have an impact on the options open to you to attach them.
My first thought was you should gather a bunch of your friends with a promise of Groslich beer when you finish. Have them lift it in place and hold it until the glue sets. However 3M 4200 takes about 24 to 48 hours to set and Covid 19 rules prevent large gatherings so I think that idea has to be tossed out.
I think you should carefully layout masking tape just below where the bottom of the rub rail will land. Then do the same for the top side. This will give you a good reference for placing the rail. Then use temporary screws to hold the rail in place while the glue sets. Option one is to drive the screws into the hull and once the glue is set remove the screws and use a syringe to fill the holes with epoxy. The other option is to either glue nuts or small blocks of wood to the hull. With either approach you will need to cut out relieves in the back of the rail so that the blocks or nuts will set in the rail and allow the rail to lie flush against the hull. You then bolt the rail on if you are using nuts or you screw it on if you use wooden blocks. In either case the glue is providing the strength. The screws or bolts are only there to hold the rail in place until the glue sets. Using the nuts or wooden blocks mean you do not have to penetrate the hull skin with fastener. The screws or bolts can be left in place. You could decide if you want to counter sink them and put plugs in over the heads or remove them and fill the holes. I would be inclined to use stainless or bronze fasteners and leave them in place. Unless I was going to put a stainless rub strip on the outside of the rail I would counter sink the screws or bolts and cover the heads with plugs. The benefit of the wooden backer blocks is that the holes in the rub rail do not need to be in a precise location. If you use nuts and bolts the holes will have to line up perfectly with the nuts. That might be difficult to achieve. You could use plastic blocks instead of wooden blocks as long as the plastic is of a type that will bond well and hold screws. When setting the blocks you can use a very fast setting glue like contact cement or 5 minute epoxy.
You will still need a few friends and beer to help out if you are installing long piece of rub rail.
If I were doing it I would screw the rail to the hull. Pull it off. Open the screw holes with an over sized bit and then fill the holes with thickens epoxy. Once it set I would put the rail back up and install it with glue and screws. I would still put caulking in the screw holes.
I have not been able to come up with what I think would be a reliable way to clamp the rail to the hull for 24 hours wile the glue sets. I don’t know if there is a contact cement available that would reliably glue the rail to the hull. If such a glue exists chances are it would be permanent. Short of cutting and then sanding you would not able to remove the rails without causing damage to the hull. I assume you are going with 4200 instead of 5200 because the 4200 is more flexible and not as permanent as 5200 and it gives the possibility of removing the rail if you needed to in the future.
My thoughts on the matter. Hope my explanation makes sense even if the ideas are not helpful.
Thanks for your reply, Mark. I especially like the idea of pre mounting mounting blocks. I will give that some thought. Perhaps that idea is easier than what I came up with.
It’s actually the same approach as your first plan, the only difference is that I replaced “friends” with something that doesn’t consume any drinks. Saves a truckload of beer
The difficulty is that the rub rail does not have the same distance to the toe rail or hull deck joint mounting cap or whatever you’d like to call that. That means that “A” in the sketch is a variable that should be carefully measured and cut out right. Luckily that only goes for the front ones, after about 6ft it’s all the same.
Also the boat should be on the hard to be able to tie a bungee cord to it’s stand. I don’t think gravity will do the job.
Mark,
I like your idea but have a couple of suggested changes. Cut some blocks that will follow the profile of the hull/deck cap rail profile. Also cut a number of blocks that will fit the rub rail profile. Now cut flexible battens about 70 to 80 cm long. The battens can be out of wood about 4 cm wide and 2 cm thick. Glue and screw one end of the batten to the cap rail block. Measure down to the approximate location of the rub rail and cut a vertical slot in the batten. The slot should be about 7 or 8 mm wide and about 4 cm long. Use a long 7 mm counter sunk bolt to bolt the rub rail block to the batten using the slot. You can use a washer and wing nut to hold the block in place. The slot and bolt will allow you to adjust the height of the rub rail to the correct position and then lock it in place with the wing nut. That way you don’t have to cut precise length clamps. The batten will extend down past the rub rail by about 20 to 30 cm. It will have a hole in it that you can attach a line, surgical tubing or a bungee to put tension on the batten and clamp the rub rail to the hull until the glue sets. You can use small bolts in the back of the rub rail block to adjust the spacing as shown in your diagram. A bolt will allow for easier adjustment of the spacing than a screw when the rail is in place because you will be able to get an open ended wrench on the bolt head.
I have attached a rough diagram that I hope will help explain my thoughts.
One difficulty that I see with this approach is that the blocks at the cap rail high have a tendency to slip off the cap rail if too much tension is attached to the batten.
If you decide to go with the pre mounted mounting blocks just make the cut out in the back of the rub rail slightly bigger than the mounting block so that you don’t have to be precise on locking the mounting blocks and you will have a bit of adjustment room. If you can use plastic mounting blocks they will be less likely to split than wooden blocks.
Very clever Mark, using an additional part to adjust things. I think your design is somewhat complicated to fabricate and a lot of work to make multiple copies of. But it sure gave me a very good push in the right direction. Thank you.
If I simplifie it, the frame can be made out of two, maybe three simple parts.
Part one will be the main frame. There shouldn’t be a need for it to bend, the bungee is doing the pushing. I could extend the bungee attachment outwards for a better angle, the bungee cords going to the boat stand or the keel.
The second part is the rub rail holder. Simple piece of ply which I will screw later on to the correct position on the main frame using two self tapping woodscrews.
And I could make an additional part keep the frame stable.
Maybe it’s even possible to clamp the frames to the hull and then shove the rub rail in the open spaces. Next step would be to take the rub rail holders and screw the rub rail into position on the frames one by one. No need for a spacer screw and not even need for an extra pair of hands. Would be handy though.
I think the cross piece to stabilize the mainframe will be necessary. A couple of pairs of extra hands as well. Once you put the glue on the back of the rub rail you won’t be wanting to move it too much.
You will want to dry fit every thing and screw the rub rail holder in place before the glue goes on. Make sure you mark the location of the main support on the cap rail so that when you apply the glue everything goes back in exactly the same place.
Are you going to try to do each side in one piece? My design will take a bit longer to fabricate however I think there could be real benefit in having the easily adjustment for height position. The rail is approximately 25 feet long. I can’t see you needing any more than one brace every 2 feet. So you would only be making about 12 to 13 supports. The strapping just needs to be cut to length and the slot cut in it. You can do that with a router or a dado blade on a table saw. The cap rail block and rub rail block will take the same amount of time to fabricate with either design. An extra hour making the supports may well be worth it. You will be able to put the rail in place and stand back to see if it looks right and make any adjustments that are necessary.
You might want to use hot glue to hold stops for the end of the rub rail so that you can get the for and aft position consistently.
Would like to be there to help but air travel is restricted for the foreseeable future.
Mark,
Another thought, which ever design you use I assume you will cut the cap and rub rail blocks on a band saw. If so make a template out of ply wood and the either screw it or use hot glue to hold the template to the blank stock. Then just cut along the edge of the template. That should speed up the process. If you are using plywood for the supports you can stack several pieces held together with screws and cut 4 or 5 in one go depending on how big your bandsaw is. That should also speed up the production.
I have some experience with a Flexiteek product from 10 years ago. It worked out well so I know they’ve got a good product. From what I remember the material is sausage like, even in rub rail dimensions it’s very flexible. Obviously the temperature of the product plays a role in that. I estimated to cut 20 frames to get a straight rail. I do not own the actual profile yet so I’m not cutting anything until I do. For the folks that supplied me with an indication of the original shape of the rub rail: thank you very much!
Unfortunately I do not have access to a band saw. I’ll have to do with a jig saw and will be cutting them one by one. I’ve got some decent tools in my workshop but a bandsaw is on the wish list. As is a nice table router.
I’m not too worried about the rub rail position for and aft consistency, I know that you can’t look at both sides of a yacht in one go. And the human memory isn’t that photographic in general. Besides that, there are other flaws in the moulds of an n36 that are significantly worse than the aftermarket mounted rub rail. Even though, I’ll try to do my best to get it right but will not waste any time on it doing so.
Dry fitting was what I’ve been thinking so far. A superb comment has been made mentioning glue and that made me go; d#mn, not there yet. Once it’s in position, can’t I just tilt it bit and apply the sticky stuff? Then let it go and tension it up? (preset of course).
From experience I know that PU based glues or caulks form a surface film after minutes of getting it out their packaging - preventing it to stick properly. So I either have to work mega fast to prevent this from happening or think of something else. And yes, I was hoping to make the rail out of one piece of Flexiteek. That’s one of the advantages of PVC, the lengths are unlimited (rolled up in a box shipped to you…)
For all you folks thinking of replacing or adding a rub rail to your Nonsuch or other make boat, stay tuned because clever solutions will come up in this same tread in a couple of days. Powers? We won’t let them down, will we? (you know that I’m asking you for more expertise, right?)
Steve touched on a detail that is (to me anyway) important for a good fit. The ends will be difficult to get to fit tightly down on the hull. My wooden ones have a gap at each end and it bugs me. Steve’s idea of filling with a putty mix is one solution but the way this is always dealt with in building wooden boats is by making a subtle concave in the inside face of the piece over the last several inches to a foot maybe. If you were using wood this would make it fit perfectly tight at both ends without the appearance of either a gap or a filler. If you are using something less stiff it may not work as well. Also if it will be painted putty filler may not be an issue. It needs to be subtle and long enough to fair into the rest of the rail but done correctly it will look very professional.
Mark,
If you don’t line the two rub rails up the same, you will know even if no one else does. It will cause you to wake up at night in a cold sweat screaming “what have I done?”.
Actually I was thinking that if you attach the clamps to the rub rail during the dry fit you will want them to go back into the same place along the cap rail when you apply the glue. If not any variation in the distance between the cap rail and the rub rail location will move the rub rail out of alignment.
The rub rail profile for the 366 R is tapered from back to front. It is 1.5" deep at the back and 1.1" at the front. It is also 1.5" from front to back. With that in mind You can make clamps that don’t require individual cutting with the jig saw. A table saw will make it easier but is not you can do it with a circular saw and guide.
I don’t know the lumber dimensions you use in Holland so I will use North American sizes. For framing houses we use lumber with called a 2 x4 (finished dimensions of 3.5" x 1.5") that comes in approximately 8’ lengths. We also have strapping 1 x6 (finished dimensions of 5.5" x .75" ) and comes in 8’ lengths. Rip a 2x4 down the length near the middle section. The cut will be on an angle so that when the angled face is glued to the 1x6 the upper side follows the angle of the lower side of the rub rail. You can use a sample of the rub rail to give you the correct angle. This is attached to the lower face of the 1x6 (you could substitute 2x6). The remaining piece of 2x4 may be big enough that it will work for the upper side of the bracket. It is glued on so that it runs at a 90 degree angle to the face of the 1x6. Use screws and glue to hold the pieces together until the glue sets. Space the screws so that you can cut 2" to 2" to 3" sections without hitting the screws. When attaching the 2x4 pieces to the strapping you can space them so that distance between them is slightly less than the depth of the rub rail. That way as it goes on it will grip the rail firmly. Alternatively put short sections (2") of rub rail in between as you do the glue up so that you have an exact fit.The back of the rail will stick out past the clamps so that it is the first thing to contact the hull. It sounds complex when described but it should only take15 minutes to cut and assemble the pieces. An hour for the glue to set and 5 minutes to cut out the 20 clamps lengths. You can use a similar approach for the portion that goes over the cap rail and then use strapping and screws to join the two pieces together. The top clamps do not have to fit the cap rail perfectly they just need to fit so that they don’t move around. I have attached a drawing to help show what I am thinking.
