Sailing advice

Hi Rob,
Thanks for all of the advice and photos! And don’t apologize for digressing about the fun you had. I hope it’s why most of us have our boats.
I have a different brand of instruments, but a similar display. Mine does not display true wind (yet?) I assume it is calculated based on apparent wind and boat speed, but my boat speed sensor is broken and I’m nervous about removing it. It’s been there for so long that I’m not sure the seals will correctly seal around the temporary plug or when I replace the sensor after repair. So I’m awaiting a haulout for that repair. Until then I have only apparent wind. I don’t stare at it, but do I use it a lot more than the vane at the top of the mast because I wear a pretty big sun hat and it’s really hard to bend my aching neck far enough back to see it way up there.

I’m a bit confused about something in that second photo. I see the TTs. I thought you put green ones on the starboard side and red on the port side. But I see only red ones on the leach. Are they streaming from the other side of the sail - if so, where are the ones from this side? - or are they green and the lighting is just weird?
Also, I understood that they design taller rigs (not Nonsuches) to get more of the sail up where the smoother winds are. So wouldn’t you want the highest part of your sail to be drawing well?

Your comment about the last photo actually raises a question that I probably would not have got from the photo itself. You talk about the weather helm at 9:30. I assume that means you’ve got the wheel over almost a quarter turn to the left. I experience a lot of weather helm in gusts, but I assumed that is normal. If I’m getting too much too regularly I usually sheet out some. But I don’t understand the dynamic of the weather helm and the stalled TTs. I just figured the sail was generating too much power. I can see that I really need to get some telltales up there, just to help understand it all. I’m not a racer, but I want to make the boat sail well. (My “crew” take a much greater interest in who we are passing or catching or not than I do. I’m usually busy enough trying to get where I’m going without crashing into something.)

Thanks again,

Answers the your questions Brian,

  1. I thought you put green ones on the starboard side and red on the port side. But I see only red ones on the leach. Are they streaming from the other side of the sail - if so, where are the ones from this side? - or are they green and the lighting is just weird?
    A1- For leech TTs one per batten is sufficient, you don’t need an inside and outside TT. I alternate sides, top starboard, 2nd port, 3rd starboard… but I don’t think the side it is stuck to matters… just habit. You definitely need two (one on each side) for luff TTs. The inside (windward) TT shows when you are luffing (sailing too high) and the outside (leeward) TT shows when you are stalling (sailing too low ). For luff TTs having different colors can come in handy, but it’s not essential for them to provide value. I guess they do have value if you are sharing videos… it would be disorienting to see red TTs on the the starboard side of the sail. For leech TTs I like red or orange… but I’m cheap and would settle for green if I ran out of red.

  2. Also, I understood that they design taller rigs (not Nonsuches) to get more of the sail up where the smoother winds are. So wouldn’t you want the highest part of your sail to be drawing well?
    A2 - Two thoughts. First we only have the ability to spill air from the top. Second, there is no driving force without some heeling force (except dead downwind which we avoid for other reasons ). The heeling force has a lot of leverage at the top of our 58’9" masts. So spilling air from the top ( when we want to spill air ) helps us minimize heeling. Different story in light air.

  3. I don’t understand the dynamic of the weather helm and the stalled TTs.
    A3 - You have two foils. One in the water ( keel/rudder), the other in the air ( sail(s) ). Center of Lateral Resistance (CLR) balance point represents the affect your keel and rudder. If you stand on the dock and push your boat sideways and you are forward of the CLR the bow will swing out and the stern will move toward the dock. Move aft behind the CLR and the opposite will happen. Your sail has a Center of Pressure (CP). Think of the sideways force from your sail (CP) just like the force of you pushing from the dock. Sail trim can alter the CP, but we generally think of the sail as a driving force not a steering force… till you are in heavy air, at the weather mark, and your mainsheet jams and you can’t fall off till un-jam the sheet and ease the main. Imagine you are round the mark with 20 other boats… exciting and scary. Your rudder allows you to steer by adding drag and drag loads up the rig, at some point the rudder cavitates and you are at the mercy of your sails. Same thing downwind when you don’t stay under your spinnaker ( broach ). Weather or lee helm are the result result from the difference between forces from your underwater foils and your above water foils. Soave seems very tame and well behaved, but we can still benefit from understanding the dynamics of CLR and CP.

Here’s where being a dingy racer come in handy… we have to tune our boats to go fast. On a Flying Scot with a tight rig the measurement from the top of the mast to the transom is 28’4”- 28’5” we tune inside that narrow range ( a little goes a long way). The longer the measurement the further forward the mast/sail is and the lighter the helm ( less weather helm ). Pull the rig back and weather helm increases. A little weather helm is good, the boat naturally rounds up when it’s over powered. Also countering a little weather helm provides a tiny bit if lift.

Back to the NonSuch and your question of why over trimming on a beam reach might make more weather helm. Over trimming on a beam reach pulls your CP aft and you experience weather helm easing the sail results in CP moving forward.

Well reading my own explanation I’m not sure I would understand it. Maybe others can jump in with a better explanation.

An interesting exercise is to steer without the rudder. On a scot we pull the rudder and use crew weight, board depth, and sail trim to steer. I guess on a NonSuch you lock the rudder and play with the main?

Rob
s/v SOAVE
NS33 #009
Westport, CT

There’s a lot of good written advice on fine-tuning the sail trim posted at the www.Nonsuch.org website. One place to look is under the MEMBERS tab, SAILING A NONSUCH - GUIDANCE. Another is in the New Nonsuch Owners’ Quick Guide, also via the MEMBERS tab and MANUALS. All of those were written by much better sailors than me, so I’ll stick to some quick thoughts that focus on how I like to get a feel for a boat.

Try sailing to the knotmeter or GPS speed for a while, particularly if you’re somewhere with fairly steady breezes. Just adjust the main to any particular point you’re interested in getting a feeling for (e.g, close-hauled, eased, fully out). Leave it there, and gently fall off and point up the boat a bit while watching the knotmeter as you sail. As your wind angle changes, you’ll start to get a feel for which fine-tuned angle gets you the best speed.

Then do the same thing with the course fixed while only playing with the sail trim. Again, the knotmeter will tell you what makes speed better or worse, and you’ll soon get a feel for how the sail looks when you’re doing best.

How much wheel rotation is right to correct rudder angle for weather helm seems to vary a bit. Since we can look over the transom and see our rudders, you can get a feel for how wheel rotation and rudder angle relate on your boat.

On mine, it’s about a turn and a half from hard over in one direction to hard over in the other. To put it another way, three-quarters of a full rotation from straight is as far as you can go either way. On my friend’s boat, there’s a bit more – you don’t quite make two turns to go from full hard over to full hard over (seven-eighths from straight to hard over in either direction), but you go more than mine. Sometime at the dock, try turning the rudder back and forth fully from one side to the other and note what the relationship between wheel movement and rudder turning is for your boat.

Getting back to getting a feel for things, the more work you feel it is to turn the wheel to keep the boat sailing straight, the more drag the rudder’s creating – and therefore the more it’s slowing you down. Alter either your steering or your sail trim to where the rudder feels easy. If you can’t find any such adjustment, you probably have too much sail up for the conditions.

One of the Nonsuch sailing guides I’ve seen literally gets down to a list of recommendations about exactly what choker adjustment to make for each combination of wind speed and angle to the wind. For those who are good memorizers, it’s very useful.

Additional rules of thumb I use when comparing my boat’s performance to others are as follows:

  • If they’re hanging a chain off their bow, I can probably beat them. Especially if the chain’s hanging in a catenary curve.

  • If I’m sailing faster than them, we’re racing.

  • If they’re sailing faster than me, we’re just here to have fun and are definitely not racing. Furthermore, they must have their engine on.

  • If my instrument readings disagree, I accept the reading which reflects best on my boat.

– Bob
Me Gusta
Nonsuch e26U #233

Always remember that a paddle driven knotmeter responds quicker then the GPS driven chartplotter.

Joe Valinoti
S/V iL Gatto NS30U #221
Sea Harbour YC
Oriental, NC USA

Thanks for even more answers!
Actually, most of the explanation of #3 I already knew - except for the spinnaker stuff - though you explained it very well. I worded my question poorly in the first place. I’m trying to understand how the stalled leech TTs relate to the weather helm. Do they warn of it or are they just an interesting side effect?

I really do need to re-read those guides now that I’ve got some time in the boat to relate it all to. Even so, I appreciate the other advice that might not be in them.
I have been experimenting with sail trim while on a steady course, but I really like the idea of changing course in a more methodical way than my usual meander while watching the speed. I’ll give that a try. And most of my sail trim experiments have been in light winds when I was trying to make the boat go at all. And in those conditions I found that I could sheet way in or way out and it just didn’t matter much. Adjusting the choker made a much bigger difference in the light winds. At least that was true in my pathetically disorganized experiments.
I may not be the most experienced sailor, but I have sailed and flown airplanes in the past and it always bugs me when I have to turn the rudder so far that the drag slows the boat down. But I and my crew are old (I’m the youngest) and we just put up with a lot of inefficiency that could probably be corrected with a little initiative. :slight_smile:

I can see how that would be. Unfortunately, mine is missing half of its paddles and so reports about half the speed. I didn’t do it! The boat came that way when I bought it. :slight_smile: I actually wonder how it could even happen.

Brian: Most manufacturers make replacement paddles. Also, there should be a plug to use while you have the transducer out.

Joe Valinoti
S/V iL Gatto NS30U #221
Sea Harbour YC
Oriental, NC USA

Brian,
My guess on damaged paddles is either a misplace lifting sling or a over overzealous diver cleaning your bottom. I guess it doesn’t matter broke is broke. I know some owners mark where they want slings placed, and cross their fingers that they land where indicated.

Regarding the question about “I’m trying to understand how the stalled leech TTs relate to the weather helm. Do they warn of it or are they just an interesting side effect?” …

My thoughts… TTs are super fine dynamic indicators of air flow over very localized spots on your sails. Their relevance with regard to weather helm falls into the “interesting side effect” category in my thinking. The influence that sail trim has on weather helm is negligible when trim is in the ballpark. You can trim to a ballpark level of accuracy without TTs, they help you zero in on optimal trim and are great teaching tools because the provide instantaneous feedback from tiny changes in trim or heading. In the photos I shared, the difference between photos was less than a foot of mainsheet.

I use my speedometer (STW) when it’s working or my plotter (SOG) to help me with ballpark trim. But I’m not very good at it and I’m skeptical that I’ll ever be able to understand Soave as well as I understood Skimmer ( our Capri 22 ) or Re-Quest ( our 2nd Flying Scot after Quest our first). I raced these boats with identical boats for many years.

I’ll have a ton of fun trying to understand Soave. Probably better not to have scratch racing available… optimizing gets expensive.

Rob Cohen
s/v SOAVE
NS33 #009
Westport, CT

Joe,
Thanks, I didn’t know that… This winter I think I’ll order a spare if it’s available for mine.

This year I can blame my speedometer dysfunction on my relaxed bottom cleaning schedule. It comes and goes. Last time I was out it took 20 mins of sailing at 7+ knots to break it free.

Rob Cohen
s/v SOAVE
NS33 #009
Westport, CT

Good Day All.

Remember that the paddle driven knot meter shows SPEED THRU the WATER as opposed to GPS Speed is OVER THE GROUND (OCEAN FLOOR!)

Safe Sailing.

Cedric Single Malt

26C - #207

Chester Nova Scotia

Hi Joe,
I actually have a new paddle replacement kit and a plug, but I’m nervous about doing it with the boat in the water. The reason is that the sensor has been in the through-hull fitting for a long time. I’ve been told “it should work”, but there’s that word “should”. I’ve never seen one of these through-hulls with the sensor removed and they are no longer sold so I can’t find one at a marine store to look at. So without adequate information, I have no way to evaluate the risks. If it turns out that the back flow preventer doesn’t work and I can’t get the plug in I will have to hammer in a cone and do a very expensive unplanned haul out just for this. Even if it all goes smoothly, but doesn’t quite seal I will have a leak for the next year or so until I do a planned haulout for painting. I just don’t figure it’s worth the risk. I’m a recreational sailor and boat speed is really just a curiosity.
Have you (or anyone else) removed these sensors? It’s a 90’s vintage Autohelm (now Raymarine) unit. Are the seals and such sufficiently robust that I shouldn’t worry about it?

Brian: I don’t think those old Autohelm units have a bladder to stop water coming in but the new ones do. However, the old one I had, like yours, was never a problem when I removed it to clean and re-install using the plug. I had to get my crew acclimated to pull the current one as the volume of water coming in for 2 seconds alarmed them.

Joe Valinoti
S/V iL Gatto NS30U #221
Sea Harbour YC
Oriental, NC USA

Prior to replacing apply smear of waterproof grease( aka winch grease)to paddle greatly retards marine growth
Safe sailing
Cedric Single Malt
26C. #207
Chester NS

Brian, your speed was good so it is hard to be critical. I might have hardened the halyard or Cunningham a touch to take the wrinkles out of the sail by the mast. Pick an angle off the wind and while holding that angle play with sail trim to see what is faster. It will take a lot of experimenting. Trim in, ease see if there is any difference. Adjust the choker in and out. Now try these in combination. If you have too much weather helm. Try hardening the choker and the halyard and Cunningham if you have one. This will move the draft of the sail forward as well as flattening the sail which reduces it power. Also try easing the mainsheet. Play with the settings to see what works for your boat and sail. Remember some of the boats have a shallow keel and rudder and may require different trim than the boats with a deeper keel and rudder. Also the sail aspect ratio will be different on a 33 than on the other models so may require slightly different trim. If I remember correctly your boat was not finished by the factory so she may be slightly different in terms of weight and balance so may need different sail trim. I do recall that she took 1st place in on of the INA Championships so she is a fast boat (no pressure).

I like lots of tell tails. I have been accused of dressing my sail like a Christmas tree. I have red on the port side and leech (leach?) with green on starboard. The tell tails are roughly in line with the battens. The first starts about 3 feet back of the mast and I have one about every 3 to 4 feet running back to the leech. There is not much point in having any closer to the mast since the turbulence off the mast will not let them fly cleanly. By having the tell tails run front to back and not just at the leech I am able to see how the wind is doing along the entire sail not jsut at the leech. You may find that with the taller sail on a 33 that you want a couple of extra rows of tell tails. I have been told that having the leeward tell tails flying straight back and the windward tails just slightly lifting is fastest. I have also been told that the leech tell tails are the most important. If they are not flying you are loosing speed. As part of this process, keep an eye on the leech. You do not want it fluttering. That is hard on the sail and causes drag. You remove the flutter by tightening the leech line. If you tighten the leech line too much you will develop a cup in the leech. A cupped leech will slow you down but it is not damaging the sail like flutter does. You may find that you have to adjust the leech line for different wind strengths. Some sails have adjustment points at the leech others have the adjustment point at the mast.

The paddles wheels can be damaged by lifting slings. My practice is to remove the paddle wheel and replace it with a plug before a haul out. I have an old style system so it does not have a flapper valve to reduce the inflow of water when the paddle wheel and plug are removed. When I got the boat the paddle wheel had been in for some time and it was firmly in place. I gave an extra tug and the paddle wheel came out, I flew backward across the cabin sole and watched as a fountain of water came shooting in. My adrenaline started flowing and it took a few moments of panic before I got the plug in. Each time I pull the paddle wheel I now lubricate the “O” rings with plumbers silicone grease. They come out and go back in more easily but I still get the adrenaline rush. If you don’t want to pull the paddle wheel at each haul out you will need to mark the hull for the location of the lifting slings. If the slings go across the paddle wheel they will almost certainly break off a paddle. If you have to change a paddle wheel but not the entire transducer, follow the manufacturers instructions carefully. The wheel should turn freely. You should be able to blow on it and get it spinning nicely. My marina is in a high fouling area so I have to pull the paddle about once every month to keep it running properly.

Mark Powers

Ahhhh. Thank you. So no bladder at all might be better than one that no longer works correctly. At least it is predictable. I’ll think about it.

Brian,

I don’t know if the firehose of advice flowing in will help or hurt in acclimating to the firehose of water that comes in when changing knotmeter plugs. For some reason, I can’t resist thowing in my $0.015 in (the ordinary two cents is discounted to reflect the quality of the advice).

Personally, I hate simply dealing with the mess that has to be cleaned up after all that water comes in.

A number of people have pointed out that the knotmeter is more responsive than the GPS, and that it measures speed through the water vs. speed over ground. IMHO, the choice of which to rely upon is important for racing and navigation, but less critical when the goal is familiarizing yourself with a boat and the effects of different courses and sail trim. In playing with factors to improve speed, relative increases or decreases observed on either are sufficiently informative.

Because of leeway, a GPS’ speed over ground is not the same as speed in the direction the boat’s pointing. Because of currents that can be helping or slowing a boat, a knotmeter’s speed through the water may not match its speed over ground. It’s kind of similar to the difference between true and apparent wind.

One can spend a lot of money on instruments that give you more exact information. Or, as I got taught in coastal piloting classes some 40 years ago, do calculations. If you’re trying to navigate to a distant destination you can’t actually see, or trying to decide the best course to win a race, it matters a lot more than if you’re just out trying to have a nice day.

The manuals for all of our boats include a page illustrating where the lifting slings should go. I always give a copy of that to my yard, in addition to having put markers on the rail at each of those points. It’s not just about the paddlewheels. Those points correspond to interior structures that reinforce the hull against the point pressures exerted by the slings, as well as reflecting where the boat should balance well.

In our Southern California waters, it’s far more likely that paddlewheels get broken by some combination of aged devices and the divers we all hire to clean our boat bottoms rather than by the liftout slings. In fairness to the divers, it’s hard to tell the difference between stubborn marine life surrounding a paddle and stubborn marine life not surrounding one, so they tend to treat them the same.

My take on the question of, “I’m trying to understand how the stalled leech TTs relate to the weather helm. Do they warn of it or are they just an interesting side effect?” … My answer is, yes, it’s a warning, but only sort of.

Stalled leech telltails wrapped around the outside edge of the sail indicate that the airflow is not moving smoothly over the sail but instead is pushing more on its aft end. Because the air is pushing more on the back of the sail than it should, the center of effort has moved further back than ideal. This, in turn, means that it’s pushing the sail in a direction that would cause it to turn into the wind more than the keel is designed to counter. That means (if you don’t ease the main) you have to use the rudder to counter that push. If that push is too great, the rudder has to turn more to counter it. So, yes, then you could call that weather helm in the sense the rudder’s excess angle is creating drag.

The “sort of” part of my answer comes from the fact that our boats are really, really forgiving. Consequently, the leech telltails will stall long before you rally feel that drag. If you’re trying to squeeze the last drop of speed out of the boat, you’ll want to watch them and adjust long before the rudder and wheel gives you any feedback. If you’re just concerned about making adjustments before the boat gets hard to control, the telltails are a way too early warning system – like wearing a sweater today because the barometer told you it’ll be cooler tomorrow. So, technically, stalled telltales are a precursor to weather helm. But not a very useful warning of it.

Note that I may be defining weather helm differently than you. A well-designed boat in motion is supposed to exhibit some degree of weather helm in the sense of a tendency to turn into the wind unless rudder is applied to correct it. That slows and stops it if the helmsman goes overboard. Our boats tend to fall off rather than stay pointed into the wind once they slow. That’s one sense of weather helm.

That sense of weather helm is good. The point where weather helm becomes bad is actually better understood as drag. If the rudder is over-applied to turn the boat, it’s turning the boat not because of the water flowing over it but because it’s acting as brake. The rudder stops keep it from going perpendicular to the boat, so its shape puts more of the rudder on one side than the other – turning the boat but also slowing it. When the interest is maximizing speed, it’s actually drag rather than weather helm that’s at issue. Until the forces get too strong.

The next sense of weather helm is referring to when the boat gets out of control. When the forces on the sail get too great, the boat will want to pivot around the mast no matter what the keel and rudder are doing. At that point, the only way to get back under control is to reduce those forces by reefing. Since that’s easier done in anticipation than after you’ve lost control, people look for the best way to anticipate.

Some use wind speed rules (reef at X kts.), some use heel angle (reef at Y degrees). I prefer to use some combination of rudder feedback (reef if the rudder’s fighting you more than you feel like dealing with) and the principle of happy camper crew management (reef as soon as anyone on board looks nervous). Details depend on how I feel on a given day, and how much I want my guests to keep coming back.

As I said, my $0.015, discounted from 2 cents to reflect the value of the opinions.

– Bob
Me Gusta
Nonsuch e26U #233

I really appreciate all the intricate descriptions of the helmsmen who have contributed to this thread. I will be going into my second year of sailing my 30U after this year’s adventures are put up on hard. I am looking forward to the next season and will have the time to contemplate all of my mistakes of this one. In my opinion there is nothing more important than learning to control the wind rather than the other way around.

Brian Cayer
Spirit~Wind
N30U 419
Westbrook, Ct.

Thanks Rob and everyone else for all of the advice. I have lots to think about the next time(s) I am out.

My trimmer has the most effect on my boat speed and therefore she has to absolutely look at the knotmeter and not the GPS signal as it lags way too much. My job as driver when going to windward is to focus on going as close to the wind as possible without luffing.

Joe Valinoti
S/V iL Gatto NS30U #221
Sea Harbour YC
Oriental, NC USA