Suitable replacement winch for the Barient 10ST for N26 main sheet?

[user43]

Elsie -

I’ve attached a PDF of the bolt-hole drilling template for the Anderson 28 or 34 winch. It shows the diameter of the base as 4 15/16", Let’s say the base is virtually 5" wide so, yes, there will be a slight overhang. BUT … by lining up the template/bolt holes, it LOOKS like the narrowest distance that you’d require to drill the FIVE holes (as pictured on the template) is ABOUT 3" inches. Yes, washers are required, room for the bolts is required and it might be a tight fit on top of your coaming but MAYBE this winch will actually fit without having to resort to a plinth ?? The whole bolt pattern seems narrower than I’d imagined

It just may work.

Ernie A. in Toronto

(attachments)

winch_mounting_dimension_templates_-manual_self_tailing_winches_size_28___34-_paper_size_a4.pdf|attachment (114 KB)

[BRIAN_CAYER]

Responding to Ernie’s post and adding my 2 cents.
Considering the smooth lines of our boats I would prefer a transition plinth. Perhaps with a slot the width of the combing milled in the bottom and tapered to blend with the sides of the combing. That to me would look deliberate and structurally pleasing. I would use white UHMW to match the combing.

Brian Cayer
Spirit~Wind
N30U 419
Westbrook, Ct

[user43]

I agree with Brian.

Ernie A. in Toronto

[system]

I was on board Mascouche yesterday and dismantled the Andersen 28 2 speed in minutes. There are three bolts on the head to remove, then the whole winch lifts off for maintenance. The base is secured by 5 bolts. The 5th bolt can face forward or aft. It is aligned with the self tailing device. I believe Elsie would be satisfied if the 5th bolt faced aft for better sheet handling. I mounted my Andersen directly on the cockpit combing. The outside of the drum aligned with the outside combing so the teak trim was further out from the drum. The inside of the drum was proud of the inside of the combing by 1/4 of an inch. That has not been an issue while sailing in all conditions for several years.

NOTE: In this photo the fifth bolt faces forward placing the self tailing device facing forward. This tends to make the sheet fall on the deck rather than in the cockpit.
I mounted the winch far enough aft for the handle to clear the dodger. The combing narrows the further aft you go.

John Newell
Mascouche 26C 1
Toronto

[system]

This is photo of an Anderson 28 on my 26. Elsie, if you are going to use the drill to run the sheet winch either the 28 or 34 will be fine. Lifting the big drill in to place will be the biggest challenge.
Mark Powers

[Elsie_Sands]

John this is so valuable. Thank you very much for taking your winch apart and explaining so well. Ernie was kind enough to send me a link to the mounting dimension template for the size 28 and 34 Andersen winches, so I can easily see the placement of the 5 bolts. I had not noticed that the coaming narrows the further back you go. I’ll have to check that out when I go to the boat later today. I can see that your winch is mounted quite a bit further forward than my existing Barient 10 sheet winch. I wonder what practical difference that makes when using it. Might it make it harder for me to get to and still steer when I’m single handing?

Is there a reason you prefer to have the sheet tail onto the deck rather than in the cockpit? I haven’t seen a winch mounted so the sheet falls outside the cockpit before.

The mounting template is identical for the Andersen 28 and 34 winches and the size of the bases is identical. I’m wondering which one to buy. There’s very little difference in the price of the two sizes, not enough to make it determinative. The only differences I can see on the specs for the two of them is that the gear ratio on the 2nd speed is 4.0:1 on the 28 and 4.7:1 on the 34. And the power speed ratio 28.6:1 as opposed to 33.8.1 (the 28 and the 34) on the 2nd speed. I wish I knew what practical difference that makes. Maybe I need to give Andersen a call to find out. S

Thanks again for the time you took to answer this John, I appreciate.

Elsie Sands
NS26C Seven Stars
Maple Bay, BC

[Elsie_Sands]

Thanks very much for this Mark. Paul Miller has shown me how he leaves his Milwaukee drill in place in the winch, ready for use when needed. He has made a tether and given it to me so the drill can’t throw itself off the boat when it gets fed up with my ineptitude.

Elsie Sands
NS26 Seven Stars
Maple Bay, BC

[system]

Elsie,

John Newell’s modified his boat so that it no longer users the wishbone boom but instead has a much shortened conventional boom sheeted to a traveller in front of his dodger. I would not use where his winch is mounted as guidance for where you should put yours.

My suggestion would be to place your winch for ease of access for how you typically use your boat. If you singlehand, you might want it further back closer to the helm for easy reach. If you typically have someone with you with one steering and the other operating the mainsheet, then you might want it a bit more forward so that the two people aren’t in each other’s way.

I suspect tailing onto the deck vs. into the cockpit is a taste issue, but I’ll be curious what John’s answer is. My guess is that tailing on the deck keeps the spaghetti out of the way but increases the risk of tangles and line trailing overboard. Tailing into the cockpit, conversely, makes it easier to manage the line but puts it more in the way until you do.

I hope you’ll post what Andersen / Ronstan say about the tradeoffs between the two winches. I’m curious.

– Bob
Me Gusta
Nonsuch e26U #233

[user43]

Elsie -

The reality is that you will be having hands off the wheel while using the winch. I imagine that the first use of the DRILL will be raising the sail with the halyard (with a different winch). You’ll, then. have to move the drill to the Anderson. Do you use an autopilot ?? I ask because you must leave the wheel to raise the sail. Are you motoring along when you raise the sail ??

OK - let’s (sort of) go back. One way or t’other, let’s say that the sail is raised. So you hand pull the MAINSHEET (fast and easy, hand over hand) until it starts to get tough. You insert the drill and va-ROOM. The mainsheet tightens right up. Back to the wheel you go.

Presently, you still cannot steer at the same time that you are using the existing mainsheet winch, right ?? Though I’m not REALLY sure why, if it’s vital to keep the winch close to the wheel, well, so be it. Otherwise, mount it further forward making CERTAIN that the handle will not be encumbered by the dodger frame or anything else AND the coaming will be a titch wider. Furthermore, mount it so the self-tailer points directly into the cockpit (same direction as in Mark Powers’ photo). The sheet will will end up in the cockpit. Furthermore (once again), the max distance between the two furthest bolt holes will be a little less than if you mount it with the self tailer facing front or back. Maybe a 10% - 15% narrower BOLT footprint (not winch footprint).

John Newell is a VERY experienced sailor who does race his boat. He must have many good reasons for the sheet to tail on the deck. As a purely recreational sailor, I would be scared to death of a good length of sheet falling on to the deck and then, perish the thought, tumbling into the drink and wrapping itself around the prop. Once was enough for me and it was a reefing line, not the mainsheet.

Last point - I’d go with the 28 winch. Basically, it means that on the 34, one crank will pull in more line. IF the winches are truly the same physical size, I kinda think that the smaller winch will be easier to grind (but you’ll get a bit less line pulled in per crank). Or, I’m wrong (it does happen) and, indeed, with NO MORE EFFORT, you be able to crank a little MORE line in with the 34. And, you bet, I’d call Anderson Tech support and ask them.

As I write this, I notice a plethora of other responses and can’t wait to read them !!

Have fun !!

Ernie A. in gusty Toronto.

[Elsie_Sands]

Hi again Ernie,

Here’s the thing … Seven has an electric winch for the halyard. No need to use the Milwaukee drill there. She has an auto helm and I use it when raising the sail. I’ve never had to raise the sail single handing in strong winds. I hope not to do that. I try to pick days with light to moderate wind to go out and raise the sail. Using the sheet winch is another story. Sometimes I set off in the gentlest, loveliest wind and later in the day encounter some big strong gusts, especially in Stuart Channel and Maple Bay. Scares me a bit if I’m running downwind when it happens. Feels like all hell’s breaking loose. I know to head up into the wind to de-power / luff the sail to keep from getting knocked over by the gusts. But I need my hands on the wheel to head up in strong winds. Autohelm won’t do it for me in that situation. If I’m running downwind I probably have the boom quite a way out. So far I’ve kept the boom in closer to the rear quarter because I didn’t have confidence I could get it back in with the existing sheet winch set up. Ideally I’d like to be able to head up and bring the boom in when there’s a strong gust. So it should happen a bit quickly. The existing sheet winch is too hard for me to turn with one hand on the winch handle. Replacing it with a more powerful 2 speed winch should help. Using the Milwaukee drill should help too, especially if I can leave the drill in the sheet winch like Paul Miller does (and have it tethered to the boat so it can’t leave the boat). But frankly, single handing downwind when it’s gusty will take some experience and practice, not to mention some more mechanical advantage than I have right now. It’ll be a bit of a ballet act to head the boat up when the gust comes, then sheet in and then let the sheet out again when the gust subsides, just to do it all over again when the next gust comes.

FWIW, I have already learned so much since getting the 26. One tough lesson is that if you leave on a sail tie by accident, and can’t see the sail that well because now you have a boat with a dodger, which is new to me, the sail can get torn when you try to raise the sail. The upside is that the lovely peeps at the rendezvous did a demo for me of removing the torn sail from a NS26 (mine) and I got to visit the lovely sail loft at North Sails in Sidney when I took the sail in for a repair. Then I got to see / help with bending a sail onto a NS26 when Paul Miller kindly drove up from Cowichan Bay to help me with that after the sail came back from the sail loft.

What an amazing group of owners we have. Thank you all for all the advice and help you’ve offered me since I began this sailing journey.

Elsie Sands
NS 26 Seven Stars
Maple Bay, BC

[user43]

Elsie, it’s an absolute pleasure. You’re fortunate to be to sail most of the year (thus leaving the boat in the water, full-time) AND, especially for having a few REAL sailing, boating and Nonsuch gurus not far away.

A question/bit of musing/statement: Judging by what you say about say about running downwind, I’ll assume that the wind is never blowing in the identical direction that the boat is moving i.e. that the wind is actually blowing you forward but you are on a VERY broad reach, still slightly from the side of the boat. And, the sail is way out on the OTHER side of the boat that the wind is coming from. I say this because if the wind is DEAD behind you, you run a risk of an accidental gybe.

You seem genuinely spooked by certain conditions raised by gusty winds, etc. For the next little while, put the first reef into your sail, while still at the dock, and leave it there. Even if it means “going too slow” in light or moderate winds - big deal. What this may do is “unspook” you when a gust arrives. You’ll notice that when the gust blows, you’ll hardly feel any difference and, hopefully, feel WAY more comfy. Next, when you are running safely downwind (like the wind is coming over the starboard or port stern quarter) WITH that reef in your sail, let that big windbag OUT so that the sail is truly ahead of the mast (not perpendicular to it - that’s the constraint of a sailboat with with a stayed mast - ours are unstayed like a windsurfer). The boat will go faster, using less wind as plenty of it is spilled out of the sail. All will be calm. Onlookers may gasp but that’s a very important trick that Nonsuches are capable of.

I think that, after sailing around for a week or two with a full-time reef in the sail, you may be surprised, pleasantly, I hope.

Next: IF you have a sail cover in which the sail drops into and then you zip it up, don’t use sail ties. No need for them.

I am attaching a cheesy little drawing that I made up. All the best.

Ernie A. in Toronto

(attachments)

[Elsie_Sands]

Ernie, I do not have a sail cover that the sail can drop into. Mine has no zipper along the top and it opens from the bottom. It needs to be removed completely and stowed somewhere every time I sail. So I do need sail ties. I will get a new sail cover that the sail can drop into when it bubbles to the top of the priority list. I suppose spooked is a fair description - that will change as I get more experience with this boat. I like your cheesy drawing. Thanks again, Elsie in Maple Bay, BC

[Elsie_Sands]

Thanks for your advice all. You’ve really helped me with this decision. I’ve decided on the Anderson 28 2 speed ST winch. I ordered it for the best price I could fine, $1050.00 Can plus tax. Really looking forward to its arrival. Thanks again.

Elsie Sands
Nonsuch 26 Seven Stars
Maple Bay, BC

[system]

Elsie, I have a bottom opening sail cover that must be completely removed. I never use sail ties.
Mark Powers

[user43]

Well, that’s a revelation, Elsie, no ??. In all the years (and boats), it had never occurred to me that … hey, yes … why not ?? Especially on a Nonsuch where the sail sits trapped in its cradle lines … why bother with sail ties ?? Unnecessary.

So the sail is lying there. You just lay the cover on it and do it up !! IF, after that, you know it’s gonna blow or you’ll be some time away from the boat, wrap one sail tie around the bagged sail just to add extra support.

Mark is absolutely correct. He’s used to conditions where you are and he is very experienced. This feels a bit like like a failure to see the forest for the trees.

Amazing what you learn.

Ernie A. in Toronto