NON OWNER WOULD LIKE A QUICK SAIL ON ANYONE'S NONSUCH?

Newsgroups Archive Prior to 2025
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Hi, This is my first post since registering today. We’re in the Puget Sound area and looking for a boat. We’ve thought about a pilothouse but the cabins tend to be more chopped up. We’ve always been impressed with the simplicity of the Nonsuch rig and its large cockpit and interior. I’ve had other boats including Marshall and Herreshoff catboats while the rest have been typical racer/cruisers to 30 ft. My main concern with the Nonsuch is its upwind performance. The winds tend to be north or south here with the sound running north and south so upwind sailing is common. Off the wind, the boat looks like fun. Would anyone mind taking me out for a quick sail so I can see for myself how the boat handles and pick your brain in the process? My wife and I are very easy going and would sure appreciate it. I’m also retired so any day of the week works for me.

I’m also curious how well the boat handles going into a chop, either under sail or power, with it’s wide beam.

If you know of any for sale in the NW, feel free to let me know. I have seen the ad for the local one on this site’s for sale page and what’s available on yachtworld.

Thanks.

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What size are you considering? There is a nice 26 for sale in the Vancouver area for sale. One or two 30’s on Vancouver Island and a 30 in the Puget Sound/ Bellingham area as well.

If you want to make the trek to Vancouver, B. C. I can take you out on a 26 but I am sure there are some owners closer to you that would also take you out.

I can tell you that last spring when we were out for a sail our friend on his 2012-14? 32 Bavaria called us on the radio to ask us to slow down. He said we were pointing higher and going faster then him. He had a 125% Genoa on that was sheeted outside the stays. If he tried to point with use his Genoa would luff. As the wind dropped from 10 down to 6 knots and we both fell off to a beam reach he overtook us. According to my wind instruments La Reina sails well to 35 degrees apparent wind. She will sail at 30 degrees apparent but at that angle I am trading away too much speed.

Mark Powers
La Reina 26C
Vancouver, B.C.

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Hi Mark, Thanks for the offer. We’re mainly thinking about the 30 although we hope to look at the 26 in Vancouver in a couple of weeks. We’ve never been aboard a 26 so maybe we’ll be surprised at the amount of room. We’re planning to look at the 30’s on Vancouver Island, too. We looked at the one around Bellingham. It’s great to hear about your pointing ability.

I’d be happy to sail any size since I assume they’re fairly similar in performance relative to their size.

With the wide beam, does a large chop tend to slow down the boat, cause pounding or more than usual spray compared to similar length boats?

Does yours have a Saildrive or shaft drive? We’ve been leaning toward shaft drive for maintenance but if yours is a Saildrive I’d enjoy hearing your thoughts.

Thanks.

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I forgot to ask, how old is your sail and what shape is it in? I’m wondering just how often the sail needs to be replaced since it’s the only sail on the boat.

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I will try to cover your questions.

La Reina has a shaft not a sail drive.

The sail was made by Botts in 2011 and it is still in good shape. I don’t think the life of the sail is any different from the sails on any other type of boat. It depends on the type and weight of the cloth, the cut, the amount of exposure to the sun and how strong of winds that you sail in.

The Nonsuch carries the beam well forward and has a large and relatively heavy mast near the bow so in short steep chop with a falling breeze they will slow and may start to hobby horse. You need to fall off to build speed and take the waves at a broader angle. Part of the equation is whether you can carry enough sail to power through the waves.

There are a large number of sailors on the forum that will know more about this issue and how to deal with it then I do.

On the weekend I had a meeting on La Reina with four other sailors. The two that had not been on board before thought she was a 30 footer. One owns a Mirage 26 and the other a mk1 C&C 30. La Reina has a classic layout and the cabin table has been removed. We have a folding table for when we need it. The cabin feels much bigger and it is easier to move around when the table is in the locker.

Mark Powers
La Reina 26C
Vancouver, B.C.

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Hi DJ -

Even though I have “the baby” (a Nonsuch 22 with an outboard), I thought i’d weigh in. And, since the weather is beastly (in Toronto, anyway), the boat is on the hard and I’m retired, I have some free time.

My N22 sails like a dinghy, in that she’s light and responsive and sea-kindly and forgiving and quick (especially on a reach) and dry and solid and … i could go on. She is MASSIVE inside and is routinely confused by non-Nonsuchers (cool word, eh !!!) for an N26. She truly weighs 6000 lbs. and I always single hand her. With a bad back and tired shoulders and knees, only now and then, in a blow on the beam, is she a bit challenging to dock. I am at a slip, not on a mooring. The N26 (4’ longer) must have, honestly, 50% MORE room below and wonderful wide decks to walk around on. I owned a beloved Carter 30 half-ton IOR sloop years ago. She was very beamy and had tumble home berths but in interior volume, couldn’t touch an N26. N30s and larger are magnificent boats but they are BIG. Bigger to buy, bigger to handle when leaving and arriving, etc. An N30 is a LOT of sailboat - great with at least one crew and interesting all by yourself. Don’t misunderstand me - it’s all do-able for an experienced sailor (like you who has owned a Marshall and others.). the question is - is it easy and fun?

When buying a Nonsuch, especially, think of how much Nonsuch you really NEED. The bigger you go ($$$$$ watch out - our boats hold their value), the BIGGER you get (or worse, the bigger you are stuck with, depending on circumstances i.e. a heavy boat with a GI-normous sail to raise and loads of boom slapping LOUDLY against the mast, while motoring in a chop or sailing in very light winds in a bit of a slop from yesterday’s high winds.

You ask about the sail - I agree with Mark regarding the life span of the sail and all that. Raising the sail on an N30 better be done with a good, big multi-speed winch or by using power, on way or another. I use a Hilti drill and a WinchBit on my 306 sq. ft. sail on my N22. I wouldn’t even want to guess at the size of the sail on an N30 (or the replacement cost …). I just replaced my 18 year old North Norlam sail with a gorgeous (but stiff) new Mack Dacron Challenge Marblehead 6.77 cruising sail that will be around for many years. I don’t race but I use the boat a lot during our 6 month season out here.

I sail on fresh water (Lake Ontario) and, maybe, salt water is really more punishing to a sail. To be fair, a slightly tired used sail can be patched up and made to last a long time.

Understandably, the N22 is too small for you. I would look seriously at an N26 and see if it really gives you enough room. I know that it is, obviously, more nimble than a majestic N30, even tho the N30 will go like a locomotive in the right conditions.

Good luck in your search, sir.

Ernie A. in Toronto

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Hi DJ,
If you would like to have a ride on my 26, I’m on Bainbridge Island. Agree with the concerns about upwind performance in this area. I recently replaced my 20 year old sail and the boat points much better now. We have the shoal draft keel, and at 3’ 10" it’s great for getting into Fisherman Bay on Lopez, but apparently it does affect us upwind.
You’re welcome to try it out.

Brian Berdan

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Thanks Mark. They sure are roomy compared to most boats and seem to sail pretty well. I’m looking forward to seeing how they sail.

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Thanks for your two cents, Ernie. I’m going to up its face value to 10 cents since it’s so good. Our philosophy has been to get the smallest boat that meets our needs since like you say, the cost of gear is more, moorage, fees, etc go up along with the complexity of handling. A 26 moored next to my brother’s 30 foot cat yawl and it sure seemed big. I was never able to go aboard since the owners weren’t aboard when I was visiting.

A year or two ago, at the Seattle boats afloat show, I went aboard a Nonsuch 22. I was very impressed with the layout and of course roominess in a 22 footer. It seems like if you have a comfortable place to sit and lean back without hitting your head, a comfortable bunk and decent head, that goes a long way to a comfortable boat.

I can imagine that the 26 would be a good compromise between the 22 and 30. Recently, we’ve been aboard two 30’s and both had electric halyard winches. I guess that should tell me something. The 30 we recently saw has a 14 yr old sail. While it feels decent, without raising or pulling it out of the cover, it’s impossible to tell the shape and condition. Hearing that a new one is maybe $10K, that’s an eye opener.

We’re going do to some more looking next week and a 26 is in the mix, which I’m looking forward to finally going aboard. Thanks.

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Hi Brian,
That would be great to take a quick sail if you’re planning to go out one day. I’m about 25 minutes from downtown Winslow so pretty close. Being new to the list, what’s the best way to email/talk offline?

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Hello DJ -

Let’s up it to around 15 cents and go whole hog.

Don’t discount the importance of this: All Nonsuches have balsa-cored decks but only the 22 and the 26 have SOLID fibreglass hulls. All of the bigger hulls are balsa-cored. Of course, all Nonsuches are very high quality vessels but they’ve been around for quite a while and I have seen one of them with a terminal case of hull rot/delamination. Very nasty. My new 306 sq. ft. sail from Mack in Stuart, Florida cost around $2700.00. I have a feeling that a sail for an N26 is 420 sq. ft. I bet that sail wouldn’t cost much more than 35% more than mine, give or take. And I’d go to Travis from Mack before anyone else.

The sail on a Nonsuch 30 is 540 sq. ft. I imagine that a new one would run (maximum) $6000.00. Probably less. Yup, power winches are a must for something that big.

Also, I Googled “How big is a Nonsuch 26 sail ?” and 'How big is a Nonsuch 30 sail ?" and found some excellent and very detailed reviews and sailing trial reports of both of these boats that dealt with how well (and less than well) they sail. Most interesting.

Cheers,

Ernie A. in Toronto

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I didn’t want you to get a swell head but in light of the balsa core and sail cost info for the 26, you’ve earned a bump up to 25 cents! I thought all were balsa cored. We looked at a 30 a couple months ago that had been neglected for 4 years. The owner hadn’t even visited it for a year. The survey from 4 years earlier said there were a few areas of water intrusion into the deck core. That and the ball of muscles about 2 ft wide on the Saildrive’s lower unit cause a fair amount of concern. Plus, I just wasn’t sold on the corrosion possibilities of a Saildrive at the time. I like the idea of a solid glass hull. I’d feel more comfortable with the cost of a 26 over a 30, too.

I’ll check out the sail info on google you mention.

Is the main consideration on a used 26 have something to do with a mast splice or joint upgrade?

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Hi DJ, and welcome to the Forum.

If you haven’t already found it, check out a website called “Have Wind Will Travel”, and specifically a book called “None Such Like It”, which describes the buying process and delivery sail for an N30. Overall, it’s well written and entertaining.

Also, check out http://forum.trailersailor.com/post.php?id=975535, for comments about family living on a 26.

FYI we are satisfied 26ers, and just completed our first season with our new (to us) Nonsuch on Lake Champlain. We’re both relatively short (5’6"), and the boat is plenty big enough for the two of us. I can’t imagine needing anything bigger.

Hope this helps,

Julian Smith
Leda
N26C
Shelburne, VT

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OK..OK…OK, DJ -

I was going to watch ‘the Friday night murder show’ (Dateline) but it’ll wait. To me, the weak spot on any Nonsuch is the mast joint. Most of the time, there is no problem and, virtually all of the problems can be repaired (by you or a decent professional or the master himself, Mike Quill - more on him in a minute).

When I bought my boat, the surveyor noticed a bit of play in the joint. It probably did not not have to be re-done but Sandra (the REAL skipper) was nervous about this so Mike Quill (the master himself, I repeat) picked all 40’ of it up, took it down to his shop in St. Catharines, Ontario and re-built it. He put in a few shims, re-bolted it, etc. and it will outlast us all. He re-did all the electrics and the antenna cable, changed the cheek blocks and gave me a new main halyard. Then, he shipped it back to me in Toronto, better than new. Cost - around $1800.00, 5 years ago. Mike is a wizard and was the rigger in the shop that built the Nonsuches. He is the Nonsuchers go-to guy. I am truly lucky that he is 90 minutes down the road.

So, how does this help you ? I’d always ask the seller of the boat lots of questions about the mast (as if you really know all about the possibilities for problems). If serious about a particular boat, I’d quiz local Nonsuchers about which surveyor really knows Nonsuches and their masts. A perfect situation is when the mast is actually out of the boat, allowing you to inspect it on the sawhorses.

All of that said … very, very few mast failures have occurred in around 1000 boats, all built in the 70s and 80s. Also, I am not aware of one size of Nonsuch having more or less issues than other sizes. These masts are unspeakably heavy - seriously. and, most of us (whose boats spend winters on the hard) pull our masts. This is a recommended practice. It allows you to inspect the mast (read: the joint)..Due to their weight and the business of the joint (and for “other reasons”), some owners go to carbon fibre masts that weigh as much as a comic book. But, they cost a lot more. Actually, I heard that aluminum is somewhat more flexible than carbon fibre. I once witnessed a piece of carbon fibre as it bent a bit too much and…“Bang” - whattamess. Zillions of shards.

I wouldn’t fear the mast. But, I’d establish with a buyer that it’s condition is just as important as, let’s say, the engine and you’ll want to do the same amount of due diligence, etc.

Cheerio,

Ernie A. in Toronto

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Thanks Julian, for the tip on things to check out. I’ll look up the book. Recently, I read the book about the 30 being lost at sea but then survived and was found later. Good to know the boat made it in spite of the rough seas and being abandoned.

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That’s all good to know. I’ll do some research on that.

I wonder how the Nonsuch masts compares to the longevity of the Freedom masts? There aren’t many Freedoms for sale out here. I assume the Freedom may point higher but is not as roomy as the Nonsuch.

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Hi DJ, I have a 26 at Elliott Bay and plan to be there most of the weekend working on it. I actually just bought a new sail by Travis at Mack Sails (Ernie mentioned and recommended him earlier). Really excited to get it on the boat in ~4 weeks. Happy to show you around some time. I’m a completely new sailor though, so don’t expect answers to any “real” sailing questions about the boat performance :slight_smile:

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Hi Matt, thanks for the offer to show me around. I’d enjoy that. I’ll have to check out Mack Sails for costs. I’ve just been looking up videos on the N26. Looks like a fun boat.

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Hey Brian, I PM’d you but not sure if it went through or if you PM’d me since I don’t see an indication of any or am just looking in the wrong place. If there’s any chance of seeing your boat between now and mid next week I’d sure appreciate it. Otherwise, another time is fine. Thanks.

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DJ
Be wary of Brians offering sails. Brian sails a really nice 260 with the full carbon rig and a dodger made by one of the top firms in the Pacific Northwest. If you look at his boat you may find the others you look at don’t measure up to the high standard he sets. Any boat you buy will need some sweat equity and maybe a few boat units to get you there.

Mark Powers
La Reina 26C
Vancouver, B.C.