Young Kids + SF Bay = Nonsuch?

Newsgroups Archive Prior to 2025
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Hello,

I’ve been sailing a J24 in the Bay Area for a few years and although it’s incredibly fun, I very rarely bring my wife and kids (5yo and 7yo). It’s always a little too intense for my wife, who enjoys sailing but not being a sailor, and for my kids, who have loads of fun, but at times need to take a break, use the head (not present on my J24), or get exhaused by the spray and wind.

I’ve been very intrigued by Nonsuch boats for a while now, and have been reading what I can find online. I love the concept behind them, love the design of the hull and interiors, and on paper, they seem to solve a lot of what I am looking for: easy to single-hand, comfortable for short cruises, protected cockpit, easy to hop on, and get going on short notice (essential for a life with young kids and a fulltime job).

I love how active this group is and would love to ask you all the following questions:

  1. Are Nonsuch boats “appropriate” for sailing in the Bay, where the summer regularly sees 20knts of wind?
  2. Are there any local owners that would open to chatting with me about their experience?
  3. Has anyone writer a “how to buy a nonsuch guide”? A 26C just popped up in Vallejo, CA and I am curious to go and visit it, but would love guidance on what to look for when evaluating different boats.
    Thanks in advance for all your help and wisdom

Ciao,
Robin Bigio

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Well, I hope you find something you like, Robin. I’m sure you will get offers to go sailing from Nonsuch owners in the Bay area. Please join the International Nonsuch Owner’s (INA) after your purchase.

Joe Valinoti
S/V iL Gatto NS30U #221
Sea Harbour YC
Oriental, NC USA

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Thanks, Joe — I will most certainly join the INA!

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Hi Robin,

I sailed SC27’s SC50’s and International 14’s in SF bay for 4-5 years and have a good feel for the place.

To answer your questions:
0. This is a great boat to introduce kids to sailing.

  1. Sure are, Nonsuches are quite nice to sail in a breeze and reaching is faster than many would expect. This is because the original four purchasers were all hard core racers and had some speed expectations.
    They reef in a giffy, but even heeled over, over powered, punching into waves the ride is more enjoyable than the above mentioned boats.
  2. There are boats on the Bay but I do not know them…
  3. There must be a buyers guide… having just gone through the process here are my biggies in my order of priority based on work I would want to avoid on a 35 year old boat:

Hiring a surveyor you trust is key to getting the scoop… mine gave me a lengthy worklist so I knew what I was buying.

Hull
Any delay or moisture balsa core deck - repairs required?
esp by fittings and stanchion bases
Port-light properly sealed?
Bilge - any mould or blackness
Rudder gusset - check for black grease
Mast step - check for cracks at base and on deck
Mast - any significant dings or cracks in clear coat

Tanks
Aluminum or plastic, any visible leaks or repairs?
All vents in place?
Any fuel or oil leaks?
Propane pressure test? sniffer/detector in place?

Electric systems:
Proper grounding of mast to keel to diesel, instruments
fused bus-bar?
Shore power breaker?
Battery type(s) and capacity?

Rigging
Mainsail lifespan? how old, how crisp, years left?
Canvas lifespan? How fogged are the windows, state of zippers, years left?
state of lines and blocks?

Instruments
Radio check?
Autohelm wheel? or below deck?

—Willi
— Toronto Islands
— Brigadoon
— NS 324 #109

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Hi Robin,

By way of background, I bought “Deal Me In”, a 1989 Nonsuch 30 Ultra, in 2006 as my first sailboat ever totally by circumstance only. Why? Because 1) it had an existing berth in the East Harbor of the San Francisco Small Yacht Harbor in the SF Marina. and 2) was comfortable and spacious enough to accommodate me and my girlfriend as a week-long / weekend liveaboard ( I live in Las Vegas and have deep roots to the Bay Area). Little did I know that I totally lucked into the PERFECT boat for both me AND sailing the Bay.

I then had my inherited boatperson Ashley Perrin (a fabulous resource btw!!) help me rig and renew her properly for safety and ease of use. She then taught me to sail it in October and November in the midst of cold Fall and Winter winds and rain. I found it pretty easy and started sailing through that winter and from then on during my frequent visits.

In 2012, I saw that “Hobbes II”, a 1995 NS 354 was available in Pt. Richmond, immediately went to look at it, fell in love and bought it on the spot (after a light review by a Marine Surveyor). I moved her to Clipper Yacht Harbor in Sausalito, then in 2014 to a friend’s dock on San Rafael Creek, then in 2018 to Lowrie’s Yacht Harbor also on SR Creek. I have spent the last 8 years sailing her and improving every aspect of the vessel, from navigation to entertainment systems to a new sail and mainsheet put on just two months ago (pictures attached) :)))).

I can say with great confidence that Nonsuch boats from the very smallest 22’ up to the large 36’ boats are fabulous Bay sailing vessels. They are well balanced boats that easily handle all Bay and Delta conditions, responsive enough for the light variable winds, yet heavy enough to handle the 40+ knot blows and 7 kt ebb and flood currents that you undoubtedly as a J24 sailor are familiar with. I should note that I have little coastal offshore experience other than the usual excursions out to Mile Rock and Point Bonita in fair conditions. I do plan to Double Hand PHRF race her out as far as the Farallon’s with an experienced offshore racer next year post-COVID so we’ll see how she handles winds, waves and swells in full Pacific Ocean conditions.

Of particular importance to keep the Admiral and little shipmates happy are the ability to easily let the sheet out to reduce heel without affecting speed very much, or if desired, to single-hand reef from the cockpit. In the new sail, I did order two reefs but don’t plan to alter the single reef/2 control setup modified by the previous owner. If you ever need two reefs on the Bay, you know it’s going to be miserable conditions. And the creature comforts below are unparalleled, including the 6.5’ to 7’ head room, galley, full head/shower, berth arrangements, etc.

I’d be glad to take you out anytime I’m back up there. My M.O. is to spend a couple days in San Rafael, then take her down on an ebb tide to the St Francis YC docks to spend 2 or 3 days in the SF Marina and sail to the Golden Gate, around Alcatraz or Angel Island on Saturday and Sunday, then back on the flood to S.R. My telephone number is (702) 561-7600; feel free to call to talk Nonsuch at any time…

Michael Jabara
s/v Hobbes II NS354 #72
San Rafael, CA

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You’re getting lots of good local advice, the one thing I would add is that the mast is the most unusual part and therefore deserves special attention. It was made in two parts and there was retrofit guidance put out about how they should be bolted together and how to avoid problems where it passes through the deck and at the base. When you join the INA, that will give you access to docs on the website that cover those issues.

On a blustery day many years ago, when an emergency come-about was needed to avoid a collision, I grabbed the jib sheet, only to discover that my bored ten-year-old had entertained himself by tying a dozen knots in it.

More evidence that a Nonsuch is a good choice for sailing with kids.

(Although, with belated hindsight, it does also help to remember that kids like to have something to do; they both get in and cause less trouble if someone remembers to make sure they have something fun and constructive to do.)

– Bob
Solar Wind
Nonsuch 26C #143

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Hello Robin,

I sail “Hawkeye” a Nonsuch 26U out of the Richmond Yacht Club in Point Richmond and there are a few Nonsuch 30’s on my dock. First, she is very well suited to the bay. She is dry, even in snotty weather, and handles pretty much anything the bay can throw at her. I put the first reef in before 20 knts and the second reef at 25 knots of wind and she is remarkably fast and stable (little or no weather helm) relative to most other boats when the going gets rough. Like the J24, which used to race on the bay, the Nonsuch has a very response helm, feels like a big dingy. The wishbone boom sets up like a big jib and once you learn how to adjust the shape of the sail, she will preform well in any point of sail.

I’d be happy to talk with you or email, whichever you prefer, about the Nonsuch. I live near San Luis Obispo and usually stay on her for 3 or 4 nights a month. I’d be happy to show her to you, which should be in the next week. I’ll be installing a new fresh water tank soon and was planning to sell her this winter or spring due to personal health issues. There are several good YouTube videos about the Nonsuch, too, including a short one of Hawkeye sailing among America Cup boats a few years ago..

Bill Prange
Hawkeye NS26U #233
Richmond Yacht Club
San Francisco Bay
email: bprange123@gmail.com
cell: 707-694-2091

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Morning Michael,

So great to hear about your journey — and Hobbes II looks incredible I’d love to take you up on a sail next time you are up here. Feel free to ping on my mobile 415-6949294.

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Hey Bob, this is super helpful intel. Do you think a “normal” marine surveyor would suffice? Or should I be looking around (asking this group) for ones that have delt with Nonsuchs before?

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Robin,

Not all surveyors are equal. They can do all manner of boats, I contacted 6-7 in Wisconsin as I was purchasing sight unseen 4 of them sent me previous surveys, one stood out! I had to wait 3 weeks but it was worth getting a comprehensive survey.

Find someone who knows the boat, if possible. try to get previous surveys to see if recommended work was actually done, they are not keen on this, but the good ones will oblige.

If you do not know anyone start here —> https://www.marinesurvey.org/

—willi

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Thanks Willi, this makes sense. I like the idea of looking through a previous survey to suss out how meticulous they are. What stood out about the one you ended up selecting?

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If you can get a good surveyor who knows Nonsuches, that’s certainly better, but that depends on whether folks in your area can help in finding one. Other people may differ, but IMHO, a good surveyor who doesn’t know them is still a good enough surveyor.

The major difference between ours and any other boat make of the same age really lies in the rig. Many surveyors focus on the boat structure (hull and deck), mechanicals, and electricals. I’ve had some tell me they viewed the mast, sails, standing and running rigging as an issue for a rigger. If there’s a problem with the mast that can’t be spotted with binoculars, they might not consider it their job. Similarly, they’ll look at the appearance of the engine, and maybe check if it sounds good when run, but likely tell you that if you want to be sure, have an engine mechanic inspect it.

I don’t want to scare you about the rig issues. (I was very nervous about them when I was looking, and came to realize I’d been more worried than necessary.) It’s a due diligence issue, not a high likelihood of disaster issue. It basically boils down to a few things that can be spotted if you know about them and know how to look:

  1. There was a recommended method for making sure the two mast pieces are properly connected (cross-bolting at 90-degree angles while making sure the bolt holes don’t get enlarged and allow slip)

  2. By nature of the design, there’s a lot of stress where the mast passes through the deck and at its base belowdecks. Holes in the mast from a few feet above the deck to the base, or too many additional holes drilled in those areas, can lead to cracking.

  3. The base in which the mast sits gets a lot of pressure. If water has been allowed to sit in that area, there may be corrosion in the metal parts, or weakening in its attachment to the hull.
    By now, given the age of the boats, there’s a very good chance that – if there ever was a problem – it’s already been found and fixed. But, checking avoids being one of the rare cases. And, it’s all fixable and can be worked into the sales price if you don’t mind the effort.

I once had a Mercedes, and decided that they were not only expensive, but built to stay that way. Our boats aren’t. They’re really well built. Any problem with them if properly fixed, stays fixed.

There’s a fairly good book by Don Casey titled “Inspecting the Aging Sailboat,” available at https://www.mhprofessional.com/9780071445450-usa-inspecting-the-aging-sailboat-group that covers the basics of what to look at in any boat. It has a good checklist of things to look at. Having that checklist did two useful things for me:

  • it gave me a benchmark for evaluating the quality of sample surveys (which others have wisely suggested you request from candidate surveyors you’re considering hiring)
  • it helped me pre-check boats so I didn’t waste money paying surveyors to find things I could find myself
    Hope this helps.

– Bob
Solar Wind
Nonsuch 26C #143

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Hiya Robin -

Welcome aboard !! Yes, without a shadow of a doubt, you should get a Nonsuch. And, IMHO, with 2 kids and a wife (who, likely, prefers sailing on a not-too-tender boat that actually has a WASHROOM), you should look at a Nonsuch 26. It sails like dream, is easily single-handed and, if going out with the gang, you put in a reef at the dock and unless there is NO wind, you are good until a serious blow.

There is no more comfy boat than a Nonsuch and you’ll have to hunt real hard to find a vessel that is better built. I sail an N22 out of Toronto on Lake Ontario (about 25 nautical miles from where these boats were built). “Moustaches” (she came with that name …) is perfect for me and my girlfriend. I have loaded her up with all kinds of mod-cons and very comfy berths. We spend weekends aboard and I single-hand her during weekdays. My boat gets sailed a lot. Any novice can sail a Nonsuch and any good sailor can tweak the sail and go like hell. It is amazing (and very interesting) to see what tricks can be played with one honkin’ big sail. I tell my (envious) friends that my boat is like a windsurfer with a toaster oven and a digital flat screen TV.

All that said, an N22 is too small for you. and you needn’t contemplate an N30 (unless you need a condo). The N30s (or larger) are great, great boats but, sincerely, look at an N26. There are many of them out there. They and their smaller siblings, the N22s have a solid glass hull. Anything larger has a balsa-cored hull. All that this means is that it is simply one less (very major) potential headache to deal with.

Like these marvelous boats, I have found that this discussion gruop is superb. If you follow it, you start seeing certain contributor’s name coming up again and again. (I am NOT referring to myself.) Many of these “familiar” names have an absolute wealth of Nonsuch experience. What they may have forgotten, just maybe, one day… I’ll learn. Most of us INA members are kinda passionate about our little boats. We love them and keep them, for the most part, in excellent shape. If I was looking for a good Nonsuch 26, I’d be checking out the boats for sale listed in the INA site. While not to state that I wouldn’t bother with other listings, I’d check out our members boats first.

As one of our very experienced members recently pointed out “Expect to spend an extra 10 Gs, give or take, over time, to get that used Nonsuch to where you want her to be.”

There is (I certainly hope he is still with us) a gent named John Foster who sails an N22 (Hull #48 - BLUEBERRY) out of Encinal Yacht Club. He races the daylights out of this little boat in SF Bay. Aside from chatting with every Nonsuch sailor that you can find around your neck of the woods and aside from every sail that you’ll be invited out on, see if you can track John Foster down. He’s been at it for a while. Try this: http://nonsuch22blueberry.blogspot.com/

I do not know (or work for) Bill Prange. I read his comments to you. He isn’t far away from you and it looks like his boat may be coming up for sale. To be able to inspect a vessel, warts-and-all, with the owner (who has clearly loved it taken good care of it) is worth it’s weight in gold. It beats checking out a boat with the broker. I am sure that there are other N26s out your way, also.

I know that you would love owning an N26 and I really hope you get one. You won’t be disappointed.

Meanwhile, you and yours stay healthy.

Ernie A. in Toronto

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Greetings Robin,
I love my NS 26C. I grew up racing Lightnings with my Dad, and then moved on to 420s, and finally 470s. Now being in my mid 60s I appreciate comfort much more than outright performance. That said, you will be very pleasantly surprised with the performance of the Nonsuch design. My last boat was a smaller gaff rigged catboat. It was a great trailer boat that was great for a few nights out gunk holing on Lake Champlain and bouncing to other New England lakes. It was that little catboat that sold me on the virtues of a wide beam giving a roomy cockpit, and incredible room in the cabin. Pushing the mast forward out of the cabin just amplifies that cavernous space. All that is true of all the NS boats. Incredible room aboard given their respective lengths.
Alas, the speed racer in me had to have some say. To put it simply, the NS 26 is not a slow boat by any measure. In fact, from a beam reach and lower I easily show my transom to all but the fastest sloops. The 216 PHRF I carry with a folding prop almost seems unfair. I do race on Lake Champlain and have surprised and frustrated many of the J Boats, Alerion 33s, and other racer/cruisers once we head back from the weather mark. The 26 will surprise you how well she sails to weather too. Read up on the forum on tips such as not sheeting in too much, tweaking the shape of the sail depending on angle to wind, wind strength etc. there is so much you can do to shape the sail. The halyard, choker, topping lift, and if you choose to use a Cunningham, most sails already have the cringle in place and you may even see a spare port side winch inboard to use for that purpose.
But the best virtues of the NS26 have to be comfort in terms of space and also sea kindliness. They are relatively stiff boats being so beamy and with a modernish design below the waterline. Reefing is a snap and really does not give up much boatspeed when it’s called for. If you want to get the kids involved, there can be plenty of crew assignments all from the cockpit. Or, you can single hand easily. I single hand the majority of the time. Our mooring field is exposed to a ten plus mile southwesterly fetch and I can easily pick up my mooring buoy mast first time nearly every time. And that includes nudging my dink to the side on approach. What I am spending an awful lot of valuable wind trying to say is, the NS 26 is a fantastic family boat that still provides plenty of performance for those inclined to extract it. And…that unstayed massive mast and wishbone boom is a great conversation starter for meeting new friends.
Pat Furr
NS 26C #133
“Bandolero” Charlotte, VT

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Robin,

Good question…

A quite a few things:

  1. he had been a sea captain on a large charter yacht - so he knew sailboat systems.
  2. he had been a Nonsuch Dealer
  3. he had been surveying for 20+ years
  4. his sample survey was more than I was expecting.

Afterwords:

  1. his survey was 85 pages and found both significant and small items. This has given me my priority work list.
  2. the folks at the yard in Wisconsin new him by first name, even though he lived 1.5 hours away.
  3. 2.5 hours post survey conversation made me feel comfortable that I could take the boat on an 800 mile lake voyage

—Willi
— Toronto Islands
— Brigadoon X
— NS 324 #109

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Great. My next trip up there is Dec 2 through Dec 8. I let you know when and where I’ll be going out from (either Lowrie YH in San Rafael or the StFYC Docks in SF Marina)…

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Also, I’d be glad to accompany you to see the NS26 in Vallejo if you want a second opinion when I’m up there…

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Thanks, Michael — super generous of you!