Is your Nonsuch leaking?

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Hi All -

A few years ago I posted on this forum about refinishing my port window frames on my Nonsuch 30. What I and others have found is that the Atkins & Hoyle port windows were installed originally without any sealant between the port window and hull. At least, not where it matters.

Last weekend I removed the outer frames of my port windows on my NS36. The boat has signs of interior leaks all over. I was hardly surprised to find that there was absolutely no sealant between the window and the hull. No wonder there are leaks!

These windows are installed from the inside with a flange ledge that extends through the hull. This ledge, with the outer plate removed, allows water that hits the ledge to come straight into the boat Interior if there is no sealant to block the way. In the pictures below, you can see this pretty clearly (also reference Paul Miller’s post a couple of years ago as well for more pics). I can practically see straight into the boat!

It could be assumed to think that the outer frame is somehow responsible for sealing the window on the outside. These outer frames on both of my Nonsuches were caulked like heck. Even the screw heads were caulked to try and keep the water out. However, not a spec of caulk was placed between the inner port frame and the hull.

When I first opened these up on my NS30, I called Atkins & Hoyle to inquire. They told me that the outer frame serves only two purposes: 1) it fastens the inner frame to the hull with the 4 screws that hold it together, and 2) it covers the rough cut of the fiberglass to clean up the installation. It has no real waterproofing capability other than covering the direct impact of water as it hits the window assembly. I’m sure that caulking the entire perimeter of the outer frame and inner frame will help, but try getting any caulk in the underside of that frame. And the little amount that might make contact is minuscule.

Now if I were designing a window for a boat, I would think that it would be flanged on the outside of the boat to prevent water from coming in. That’s how windows on buildings are designed. But I am not a naval architect. Maybe there’s a good reason.

In any case, we have these port windows and it is very likely that they are not sealed. If you are having leaks, I recommend you pop that outer plate off and look at the gap between the frame and the hull. Seal that thing up! The outer plate doesn’t really need to be sealed, other than at the screw holes.

I hope this helps to keep your Nonsuch dry!

Bob Gehrman
NS36 #52 “Fortunate”
E. Greenwich, Rhode Island

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Wow! This group just keeps getting better. Now you are answering the questions just as I sit down to ask them.
Thanks, Bob! Now I know why there has been water on my aft galley counter after the last couple of rains even though strategically placed blue paper towels showed no leaks in the window seals.

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[user11]

Thanks Bob for your pictures and diagram. This project is one of the things on my list.

Mike
BIANKA
1986 30U
Long Island

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I am interested to hear opinions about the best sealant for this job.

Mike Jennings.
NS5 Chancy.
Port Moody, BC.

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FWIW I used LifeSeal. Depending on the gap between your hull and your headliner you might also want to place a backer rod between them to close the gap so the caulk doesn’t keep flowing.

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We pulled our ports and hatches out and rebedded them with Lifeseal. Worked well.

If it was me, I would pull any leaking port totally out, not just the outer plate. Clean it all up, and rebed it all with a healthy dose of Lifeseal. It is not that much more work and you are more confident in the finish product.

lloyd herman
Rendezvous, 30U
Port Washington, NY

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Ports like these are simply not designed to be installed in boats with inner liners. The watertight seal designed into the port is the flange to hull joint. In our boats this joint is between the flange and the liner. By the time water gets to that point it is already inside the boat. The only way to competently install these ports in a boat with a liner would be to mount them on the outside of the cabin. That of course would mean going on deck to open a port so obviously not an option.
These ports are designed for inside mount on solid hulls (wood, metal, or single skin fiberglass). The builder used inappropriate hatches.
Don’t ask me why a builder with a reputation like Hinterholler’s would make a blunder like this over a period of several years.
I don’t have the answer.
The only thing we can do after the fact is take the outer rings off, pump the cavity between the skins as full of caulk as we can, and replace the rings. It’s not the only bad practice on the boats either. Don’t get me started.

……but he made great fiberglass hulls.

Rant ends…

Paul M
NS30U #211, Sandpiper
Cowichan Bay, B.C.

On Sunday 11 February 2024 at 11:36:29 UTC-8 Julie & Lloyd on Rendezvous wrote:

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The factory did not do everything right, I certainly agree.

That said, of the six different makes of production boats that I’ve owned in the last 40 years, I’ve got to say that you can do a lot worse.

So, it’s all relative.

Besides, if everything on the boats were perfect, we’d have nothing to tinker with. Which is half the fun.

(Unless the problem’s in the engine compartment, but that’s multiple separate threads.)

Now if someone can just explain to me how water can migrate into what appears to be a completely sealed storage bin on the short side of my L-shaped settee… Even if it’s through the ports, which this thread’s reminding me that I’ll have to consider, how does it bypass the long side of the settee where the water tank resides and get into a compartment that appears sealed off from the rest of the boat? (Well, ok, maybe tinkering’s only a quarter of the fun sometimes.)

– Bob
Me Gusta
Nonsuch e26U #233

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Bob, you are so much better a diplomat than I am.

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If you ever want to feel good about your Nonsuch, try spending some time with a Macgregor trailer boat or a Gemini catamaran.

30-40 year old Nonsuches may leak, but I literally had to put towels and buckets underneath the chainplates on my brand-new Gemini. It was much easier to detect a leak when you wake up to water dropping on your face, though, so at least there’s that. That boat sailed pretty well, but sometimes it felt like it’d been built by overcaffeinated drunks with somewhere else they needed to be.

As for diplomacy, most of the time my foot’s so deep in the mouth that my toenails are at risk of being digested.

– Bob
Me Gusta
Nonsuch e26U #233

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Someone else being worse doesn’t make it any better unfortunately. Maybe I just take it personally because I’m a boat builder.

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Hi: My Nonsuch Madaket, a 30’ 1980 classic model #56 has the original portals and they don’t leak. The glass is severely crazed however. Meanwhile my friend has a 1984 Nonsuch 30 with leaky windows. For years I’ve never seen a winter cover on my friend’s boat and my boat has always had a winter cover. Perhaps there is a link with leaky windows, and boats that are not covered in the winter.

Joe Carroll

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Hi,

I had problems finding a leak over Elizabeth’s settee. You know I had a lot of incentive to solve the problem.I resealed the port above twice. No success. The water followed the wiring for the reading light above the settee.

I had removed and resealed all the ports except the bow port.

When I removed and resealed the bow port I could see it had been leaking. The water leaked onto the liner and ran along the liner to the light fixture wiring and then through the light and onto the settee.

I used some backer rod and life seal,

Peace was restored to Respite.

Rob Powers
Respite 26C #50

Sidney BC

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My 1984 NS 30U does not have any porthole leaks and I think they’re original.
Joe Valinoti
S/V iL Gatto NS30U #221
Sea Harbour YC
Oriental, NC USA

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Just ten boats newer than mine Joe. Polyurethane compounds can work miracles.
Lucky you!

[user43]

In 11 years of owning Moustaches, my NS 22, with Atkins and Hoyle ports, I never had a leak. I was lucky, it seems.

Ernie A. in Toronto

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A year or two ago I removed, rebuilt (new screens and interior “glass”) of the Beckson plastic ports on our 26C. There were 7 of them; so removed them, cleaned, etc, then cleaned up the holes they fit into.

I followed Wayne Canning’s Youtube video on this; I think that all are great now. The bow port had a huge hole, I put in some backing pad to help keep the sealant in place; it seems to have settled down. Like RobP had, the light wiring at the low point of the inside moulding leaked, but no longer does.

One thing we forget is that Fibreglass boat building was pretty new; George Hinterhoeller’s first SHARK was from wood, then he was convinced to try Fibreglass, and the rest is history. We now know, after a half-century of experience, what worked, and what didn’t. We also have the Internet to find information, and about what works and what doesn’t. I do look at these boats now, and marvel at the pre-CNC days of getting the moulds correct; when these boats were designed and constructed, I was a bike-ride away with my little home built RCA 1802 8-bit computers with 256 bytes RAM and my dad’s TV as a monitor, and was attending the local university (Brock University) with it’s great Burroughs B6700 mainframe, punched cards, and, lo and behold, a PDP-8. No CAD, No computer FEM. Just human brain power designed and built these boats.

So, I look and marvel at the construction, and wonder in awe of the commitment and fortitude these people had.

Now, in 10 seconds I’m going back to CNC machining of steel on one of my two CNC mills, parts drawn up in 3D CAD… I do have an RCA1802 computer, and marvel at how I managed to program in machine code, only using a pad of paper, and had it working doing all sorts of things. It was magic. Now, it seems like so much work to program the 1802.

Wayne Canning video - look for boatingzen on youtube or www.boatingzen.com. His technique seems to have worked for me.

JohnS NS26C 046 Bath, ON.

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I think these port issues must have depended on who was assigned the work as some are fine and others as we have found ugly. My 2 cents, anything but silicone. And backer rod if the gap is over 1/8 which in most as is the case.

I checked our 1983 Classic 26 and they are sealed… go figure.

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I agree with you Thor that a good installer can make the best of a bad situation, but these ports are just not designed for installation on boats with liners like ours.
All of my boats were wood and obviously only one skin so I’m not even sure there are ports made that have an exterior mounting flange and open in.
I suspect that may be the reason these were used but when you know you are using a part in a non-standard manner it is incumbent on you to make sure that you use a quality work around.
I think that quality work around is probably the one many of us have used after the fact and who knows maybe some installers at the factory even used it but apparently most did not.

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Hi,

Our 26C has Beckson ports, plastic not the nice metal ones. I was tempted by the New found Metal stainless ports but would need 5 for the cabin top even if I left the Beckson ports in the cockpit area. Lot of $US.

I checked the Beckson.com site and they have a Port Installation section. There is a reference to multiple lawyers ie. inside liner like ours. They agree it compliments installation but recommend filling between the layers with expandable foam if the area is not a high stress area or some form of filler made from plywood or? before sealing.

They recommend silicone but I do not like to use it if I can avoid it. I have used Lifeseal. Just don’t use something that may damage the plastic.

marinehowto.com has an article on installing NewFoundMetal ports and he explains how he dealt with the issue of the space between the cabin top and the inner layer.

Rob Powers
Respite 26C #50
Sidney BC